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Old 01-04-2012, 02:30 PM   #61
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Default Re: Steelers are 12 - 4, but they are the #5 seed

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Originally Posted by bagelred
No i meant if they are in the SAME division.

In this particular case, Pittsburgh should get better seed than Denver. UNLESS, Denver was also 12 - 4, then they should get higher seed since they won their division.

So how do you seed New Orleans and San Francisco?

Texans win their division and are the 4th seed?

Denver... who gets dogged for their 8-8 record but achieved it in the only division in the NFL where every team is 7-9 or better...gets the last seed?

If winning the division no longer matters, and no matter how you attempt to spin it you're saying it doesn't because a division winner ends up on the road as the last seed, why have teams play two games each against division opponent?

To diminish or eliminate the advantage of winning your division, you might as well go to an open 16 team conference. Divisions become irrelevant.
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Old 01-04-2012, 02:30 PM   #62
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Default Re: Steelers are 12 - 4, but they are the #5 seed

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Originally Posted by niko
What if Denver had an harder schedule? What if Pittsburgh's better record is a result of them having bottom feeders at the bottom of the schedule, or facing a shit division in the NFC this year, etc.

Exactly.
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Old 01-04-2012, 02:37 PM   #63
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Default Re: Steelers are 12 - 4, but they are the #5 seed

This whole topic sounds like one of those things whiny sportswriters come up with. I CANNOT PLAY SPORTS AND I DON'T LOVE THE SPORT BUT I'M GOING TO FIX IT FOR YOU.

Because of the way football schedules are made, there are built in inequities all over the place. The powers that be decided to keep the divisions meaningful in order go keep those rivalry games meaningful. Taking that away to make sure teams that can't win their division are not harmed strikes me as unneccesary.

The Steelers knew full well they needed to win their division to avoid the 5 seed for like 5 weeks now. I'm not feeling bad for them.
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Old 01-04-2012, 02:45 PM   #64
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Default Re: Steelers are 12 - 4, but they are the #5 seed

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Originally Posted by niko
What if Denver had an harder schedule? What if Pittsburgh's better record is a result of them having bottom feeders at the bottom of the schedule, or facing a shit division in the NFC this year, etc.

Sagarin's NFL ratings say the playoff teams strength of schedule is as follows (final league ranking in parentheses):

Detroit (4)
NY Giants (6)
Denver (8)
Atlanta (21)
Cincinnati (23)
Green Bay (25)
Pittsburgh (26)
Baltimore (27)
New England (28)
San Francisco (30)
New Orleans (31)
Houston (32)

Note that in the AFC, with the exception of Houston, the difficulty of SOS is in direct relation to the team's records (ie New England has the best record and the easiest schedule, Baltimore is next, followed by Pittsburgh, Cincy and Denver).

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/nfl11.htm
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Old 01-04-2012, 02:51 PM   #65
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Default Re: Steelers are 12 - 4, but they are the #5 seed

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Originally Posted by JMT
So how do you seed New Orleans and San Francisco?

Texans win their division and are the 4th seed?

Denver... who gets dogged for their 8-8 record but achieved it in the only division in the NFL where every team is 7-9 or better...gets the last seed?

If winning the division no longer matters, and no matter how you attempt to spin it you're saying it doesn't because a division winner ends up on the road as the last seed, why have teams play two games each against division opponent?

To diminish or eliminate the advantage of winning your division, you might as well go to an open 16 team conference. Divisions become irrelevant.
How is Denver getting dogged? Denver has a mediocre 8-8 record in a mediocre division. When really the Steelers are the ones getting dogged. That division brought 3 teams to the playoffs.
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:00 PM   #66
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Default Re: Steelers are 12 - 4, but they are the #5 seed

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Originally Posted by jazz873
How is Denver getting dogged? Denver has a mediocre 8-8 record in a mediocre division. When really the Steelers are the ones getting dogged. That division brought 3 teams to the playoffs.

By "dogged" I was referring to the comments/reaction from the public, specifically the entire concept of this thread. Sorry I didn't clarify that better.

And Denver's mediocre record came vs a much tougher schedule than the Steelers faced according to the stats.

Pittsburgh is getting what they earned when they weren't able to capitalize on opportunities to win their division.

BTW, not a Denver fan or Pittsburgh hater. My team...an NFC team... didn't make the playoffs this season. No dog in the fight.

Last edited by JMT : 01-04-2012 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:13 PM   #67
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Default Re: Steelers are 12 - 4, but they are the #5 seed

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Originally Posted by JMT
By "dogged" I was referring to the comments/reaction from the public, specifically the entire concept of this thread. Sorry I didn't clarify that better.

And Denver's mediocre record came vs a much tougher schedule than the Steelers faced according to the stats.

Pittsburgh is getting what they earned when they weren't able to capitalize on opportunities to win their division.

BTW, not a Denver fan or Pittsburgh hater. My team...an NFC team... didn't make the playoffs this season. No dog in the fight.
I gotcha i gotcha. But the schedule is a weak argument. You can only play the teams on your schedule.

I agree Pittsburgh got what they earned based on the current rulings but in reality they earned better than a 5th seed
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:31 PM   #68
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Default Re: Steelers are 12 - 4, but they are the #5 seed

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Originally Posted by jazz873
I gotcha i gotcha. But the schedule is a weak argument. You can only play the teams on your schedule.

I agree Pittsburgh got what they earned based on the current rulings but in reality they earned better than a 5th seed

And if you can only play the teams on your schedule, and the schedule dictates that you play twice as many against division opponents as anyone else, it stands to reason there should be a reward for winning that division.

As for schedule, I'm not using it as an argument. Simply illustrating that the unbiased numbers show that it's awfully tough to look at teams that don't have common opponents and decide which one is better. Ther last thing any NFL fan should want to see is a situation where opinions come into play. That's what is killing the integrity of college football.

I've been on more teams than I can count in my life. Beginning with Day One, the goal of each has been the same: win the division/conference (not every one was in a division setup). Why? Because it gets you to the postseason and, in some cases, earns you an advantage as a division winner.

"In reality"? What is more "reality" than the rules of the league? People's perception of what's fair? If the league owners vote to change the rules, that's great. Until then, "reality" is they've earned a wildcard spot and the seed associated with that.

Last edited by JMT : 01-04-2012 at 03:34 PM.
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:42 PM   #69
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Default Re: Steelers are 12 - 4, but they are the #5 seed

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Originally Posted by JMT
And if you can only play the teams on your schedule, and the schedule dictates that you play twice as many against division opponents as anyone else, it stands to reason there should be a reward for winning that division.

I've been on more teams than I can count in my life. Beginning with Day One, the goal of each has been the same: win the division/conference (not every one was in a division setup). Why? Because it gets you to the postseason and, in some cases, earns you an advantage as a division winner.

"In reality"? What is more "reality" than the rules of the league? People's perception of what's fair?
You're getting me all wrong lol. I am all about the importance of the divisions. The division rivalries are one of the best parts of the NFL. What i am saying won't take away each team's number one goal to win the division. There will still be the most important reward of winning the division. That being a guaranteed playoff spot. All i am saying is get rid of division winners getting home field advantage on top of a guaranteed playoff spot. Like bagel was saying division winners would also get tie-breaker advantages and such if two teams were too have the same record.
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:49 PM   #70
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Default Re: Steelers are 12 - 4, but they are the #5 seed

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Originally Posted by jazz873
You're getting me all wrong lol. I am all about the importance of the divisions. The division rivalries are one of the best parts of the NFL. What i am saying won't take away each team's number one goal to win the division. There will still be the most important reward of winning the division. That being a guaranteed playoff spot. All i am saying is get rid of division winners getting home field advantage on top of a guaranteed playoff spot. Like bagel was saying division winners would also get tie-breaker advantages and such if two teams were too have the same record.

So the reward for winning your division is going on the road to face a team that didn't win theirs. Because there's guaranteed playoff spots for two of them as well.

Cut the playoffs back to 4 teams and I agree. But as long as team's get in without accomplishing that #1 goal, you've diminished the importance of division play.

No matter how you try and spin it, if a wild card team gets a home game in the first round, you're giving them a greater reward than a division winner. And if you start parsing between division winners, you better have a damn foolproof system of proving who the better team is. And that doesn't exist.
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:57 PM   #71
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Default Re: Steelers are 12 - 4, but they are the #5 seed

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Originally Posted by JMT
So the reward for winning your division is going on the road to face a team that didn't win theirs. Because there's guaranteed playoff spots for two of them as well.

Cut the playoffs back to 4 teams and I agree. But as long as team's get in without accomplishing that #1 goal, you've diminished the importance of division play.

No matter how you try and spin it, if a wild card team gets a home game in the first round, you're giving them a greater reward than a division winner. And if you start parsing between division winners, you better have a damn foolproof system of proving who the better team is. And that doesn't exist.
No their reward is to go on the road and play a team that won more games than them.

A guaranteed playoff spot is a much bigger reward. If it weren't for winning the division they wouldn't of even made the playoffs.
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:09 PM   #72
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Default Re: Steelers are 12 - 4, but they are the #5 seed

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Originally Posted by jazz873
No their reward is to go on the road and play a team that won more games than them.

A guaranteed playoff spot is a much bigger reward. If it weren't for winning the division they wouldn't of even made the playoffs.

Of course they get an automatic berth. There's no point of having divisions if the winner doesn't get an automatic berth.

Two other teams have gotten the same reward...an automatic berth...without winning a division.

You're forsaking common sense in search of a way to win an unwinnable argument. Unwinnable because unless the rule changes, this is all wasted time.

Last edited by JMT : 01-04-2012 at 04:21 PM.
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Old 01-05-2012, 09:30 AM   #73
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Default Re: Steelers are 12 - 4, but they are the #5 seed

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Originally Posted by JMT
Of course they get an automatic berth. There's no point of having divisions if the winner doesn't get an automatic berth.

Two other teams have gotten the same reward...an automatic berth...without winning a division.

You're forsaking common sense in search of a way to win an unwinnable argument. Unwinnable because unless the rule changes, this is all wasted time.

Nothing is going to be 100% perfect, as far as strength of schedule, etc. But the easiest way to judge teams is wins and losses. Beating the teams that are in front of you.

It doesn't make sense that a division winner who is 7 - 9, can have a better seed than a team that's 15 - 1, regardless of strength of schedule worries. That situation is ludicroius, but that's the situation we have now.

Winning a division is important, but it shouldn't mean EVERYTHING. A team who is 7 - 9 is already lucky to be in playoffs in the first place. Getting a 4 seed is a travesty.
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Old 01-05-2012, 09:46 AM   #74
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Default Re: Steelers are 12 - 4, but they are the #5 seed

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Originally Posted by bagelred
Nothing is going to be 100% perfect, as far as strength of schedule, etc. But the easiest way to judge teams is wins and losses. Beating the teams that are in front of you.

It doesn't make sense that a division winner who is 7 - 9, can have a better seed than a team that's 15 - 1, regardless of strength of schedule worries. That situation is ludicroius, but that's the situation we have now.

Winning a division is important, but it shouldn't mean EVERYTHING. A team who is 7 - 9 is already lucky to be in playoffs in the first place. Getting a 4 seed is a travesty.
Do you notice that the Steelers are not complaining? That the national media doesn't really care. That the people on this board, who post on football every week arguing back and forth don't care. You know who cares?

Mike Greenberg from Mike and Mike. Mike Lupica. People like that who have made a career to tell me and you, the fans why what we watch is flawed and why they understand how to make it better.

You're fixing something that is not broke. It's unfair, but so are a lot of things in football. Scheduling (when byes are, who you play, when you play them, days off, getting flexed into primetime and losing your rest, etc.) is extremely unfair. The jets for example, wound up in Denver 3 days after a crucial game with NE. That probably cost them that game. UNFAIR! Fix it.

How about this? NE, the #1 seed will probably play Pittsburgh next week while Baltimore will get Houston. How is that remotely fair? Luck of the draw? Why don't we fix the system for that?

Two years ago the Jets got in the playoffs because two teams rested their starters. Everyone behind them (and it was several teams) got totally ****ed. Shouldn't that be fixed?

Why are my Giants playing Sunday and not Saturday? That costs us 1 day to prepare for the Packers next week. How is that fair? Fix it. Wait or is it unfair we have 1 less day to prepare for the Falcons? The Falcons who played at 1pm and we had to play at 8pm and get no sleep. How is that fair? Fix it.

Football because it only has 16 games is inherently unfair. It's part of the game. It's a man's game no bitching, no crying, this is the cards you were dealt, now deal with it. That's why we all love it.
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Old 01-05-2012, 11:05 AM   #75
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Default Re: Steelers are 12 - 4, but they are the #5 seed

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Originally Posted by bagelred
Nothing is going to be 100% perfect, as far as strength of schedule, etc. But the easiest way to judge teams is wins and losses. Beating the teams that are in front of you.

It doesn't make sense that a division winner who is 7 - 9, can have a better seed than a team that's 15 - 1, regardless of strength of schedule worries. That situation is ludicroius, but that's the situation we have now.

Winning a division is important, but it shouldn't mean EVERYTHING. A team who is 7 - 9 is already lucky to be in playoffs in the first place. Getting a 4 seed is a travesty.

So why is "beating the teams that are in front of you" so important...except when it comes to beating the teams you have to play twice each year?

If you are going to have divisions, winning that division has to give you an advantage that non-division winners don't get. Otherwise, the whole division system is pointless and you might as well have a 16 team conference with no division affiliations.

Wins and losses can be misleading when everyone doesn't play the same competition. Ask the 16-0 Patriots.

It's already a system where a 3rd place team can get into the playoffs. Aside from a participation trophy for everyone, and alternating which parents bring the snacks after each game,I don't see how much more fair you can ask for.
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