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Old 12-01-2010, 08:13 PM   #46
johndeeregreen
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Default Re: Ken Griffey Jr.?

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Pitchers were capable of throwing 90 mph back then. Walter Johnson definitely did.
Very, very few. Even by the late forties guys throwing 90 were considered absolute fireballers.

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And it's not like every pitcher nowadays throws 90. Greg Maddux absolutely dominated the current generation, and most of his pitches were in the 70-85 range.
It's not as if you need to throw hard to be great. Some pitchers, undoubtedly, would have been great in any era. I'm just using 90 as an example. The point is that the science of pitching is a million miles ahead of where it was about 100 years ago, as well is the conditioning/strength training regimens that a lot of these guys are on. And defensively? SMH. Ruth didn't even play against anyone whose skin color wasn't white. There is absolutely no debate about the massive gap between the caliber of the game today compared to Ruth's era.
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Old 12-01-2010, 08:24 PM   #47
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Default Re: Ken Griffey Jr.?

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Very, very few. Even by the late forties guys throwing 90 were considered absolute fireballers.


It's not as if you need to throw hard to be great. Some pitchers, undoubtedly, would have been great in any era. I'm just using 90 as an example. The point is that the science of pitching is a million miles ahead of where it was about 100 years ago, as well is the conditioning/strength training regimens that a lot of these guys are on. And defensively? SMH. Ruth didn't even play against anyone whose skin color wasn't white. There is absolutely no debate about the massive gap between the caliber of the game today compared to Ruth's era.

It is very hard to measure against generations, and there are positives and negatives going both ways. It is best to just measure against their contemporaries.

If it was so easy during Ruth's time, how come no one else was doing it?
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Old 12-01-2010, 08:29 PM   #48
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Default Re: Ken Griffey Jr.?

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It is very hard to measure against generations, and there are positives and negatives going both ways. It is best to just measure against their contemporaries.

If it was so easy during Ruth's time, how come no one else was doing it?
I agree, you can't compare generations because there are so many different things to consider. Had Ruth grown up in this generation, with the tools for training, conditioning, etc. at his fingertips, maybe he would have been just as legendary. But what I can say with certainty is that the difference in the caliber of play between then and now is HUGE. To make a post saying Ruth could come in and knock around 2010 MLB pitching is, quite frankly, completely asinine.

As for the second part of your comment, obviously when measured against his contemporaries Ruth was a man amongst boys. You don't dominate a sport like that without being massively talented (comparatively speaking). Nobody's denying him that.
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Old 12-01-2010, 08:31 PM   #49
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Default Re: Ken Griffey Jr.?

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Please. Ruth probably never even faced anyone throwing 90 and top to bottom pitching and defense is lightyears ahead of where it was when he played. To assume that Ruth would be able to easily rough up 21st century MLB pitching is a HUGE stretch.

They threw off taller mounds, there was less jump in the ball, and parks were bigger. AND there were pitchers who could flame. Walter Johnson clocked in at like 100 mph. Also some of the nastier sliders were from guys back in the day.

But the biggest tell is what Ruth's peers were doing. No one before him ever even came close to what he did, and it would be a while after him that it became less extraordinary.
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Old 12-01-2010, 08:36 PM   #50
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Default Re: Ken Griffey Jr.?

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Originally Posted by Timmy D for MVP
They threw off taller mounds, there was less jump in the ball, and parks were bigger. AND there were pitchers who could flame. Walter Johnson clocked in at like 100 mph. Also some of the nastier sliders were from guys back in the day.
The gap between the all-around talent level in terms of Major League pitching and defense is absolutely massive and dwarfs things such as taller mounds and bigger parks, and if you cannot see that I have nothing more to say to you. It's not a slam on the Babe, it's just quite simply the truth.
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Old 12-01-2010, 08:38 PM   #51
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Default Re: Ken Griffey Jr.?

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The gap between the all-around talent level in terms of Major League pitching and defense is absolutely massive and dwarfs things such as taller mounds and bigger parks, and if you cannot see that I have nothing more to say to you. It's not a slam on the Babe, it's just quite simply the truth.

Sure but the greatest of the greatest are equal. I think of all the sports baseball would be the one where the greats would be great in any era. AND the rule changes would benefit the Babe rather than hurt him.
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Old 12-01-2010, 08:40 PM   #52
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Default Re: Ken Griffey Jr.?

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Sure but the greatest of the greatest are equal. I think of all the sports baseball would be the one where the greats would be great in any era. AND the rule changes would benefit the Babe rather than hurt him.
The rule changes would benefit him, but he'd have to hit the ball first, something he'd have problems doing against 2010 pitching.
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Old 12-01-2010, 08:44 PM   #53
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Default Re: Ken Griffey Jr.?

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The rule changes would benefit him, but he'd have to hit the ball first, something he'd have problems doing against 2010 pitching.

Now THAT is something I highly doubt. There may be a learning curve but a great hitter is a great hitter.

For reals, you don't think Babe Ruth would figure it out and start raking?
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Old 12-01-2010, 08:48 PM   #54
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Default Re: Ken Griffey Jr.?

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Please. Ruth probably never even faced anyone throwing 90

you are completely full of shit on this one dude.

not only could guys throw 90, they had guys that could push near 100

what you clearly do not know, is back then, when they actually did it, they clocked the ball as it crossed the plate. NOW they clock it as it comes out of the pitchers hand. You need to add about 7 or 8 MPH to whatever their gun readings were then to make up for the difference.

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Old 12-01-2010, 08:50 PM   #55
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Default Re: Ken Griffey Jr.?

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Originally Posted by johndeeregreen
The rule changes would benefit him, but he'd have to hit the ball first, something he'd have problems doing against 2010 pitching.

Using your logic we might as well just say Wilt Chamberlain and Jim Brown should not be in any sort of GOAT talk since they played so long ago, and their eras sucked.
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Old 12-01-2010, 08:55 PM   #56
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Default Re: Ken Griffey Jr.?

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Originally Posted by kentatm
you are completely full of shit on this one dude.

not only could guys throw 90, they had guys that could push near 100

what you clearly do not know, is back then, when they actually did it, they clocked the ball as it crossed the plate. NOW they clock it as it comes out of the pitchers hand. You need to add about 7 or 8 MPH to whatever their gun readings were then to make up for the difference.
Did I exaggerate? Surely. But the caliber of today's pitching greatly surpasses that of the 1920s. This is a fact completely beyond debate.

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Using your logic we might as well just say Wilt Chamberlain and Jim Brown should not be in any sort of GOAT talk since they played so long ago, and their eras sucked.
You clearly must be retarded as I never said anything about Ruth being excluded from the greatest of all time discussion, and agreed to the fact that players must be judged against their contemporaries. The point, as I've expressly stated, is that you cannot pluck 1927 Babe Ruth and assume he'd have success against 2010 pitching, because the game has advanced in terms of leaps and bounds since then.
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Old 12-01-2010, 08:59 PM   #57
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Default Re: Ken Griffey Jr.?

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Did I exaggerate? Surely. But the caliber of today's pitching greatly surpasses that of the 1920s. This is a fact completely beyond debate.

HA! Nice dodge there.

Consider yourself served.

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Old 12-01-2010, 09:14 PM   #58
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Default Re: Ken Griffey Jr.?

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Originally Posted by kentatm
HA! Nice dodge there.

Consider yourself served.

The only thing dumber than that post would be the belief that 1920s pitching is on par with that of today's. Congrats, you've got both bases covered.
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Old 12-01-2010, 09:16 PM   #59
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Default Re: Ken Griffey Jr.?

That ice cream looks disgusting.
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Old 12-01-2010, 09:16 PM   #60
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Default Re: Ken Griffey Jr.?

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The only thing dumber than that post would be the belief that 1920s pitching is on par with that of today's. Congrats, you've got both bases covered.

It's not on par, but it's not as bad as you are making it out to be.
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