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Old 09-14-2018, 02:09 PM   #16
ZenMaster
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Default Re: The Road to Trillion Dollar Federal Deficit

Perhaps the US needs better trade deals
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Old 09-14-2018, 02:44 PM   #17
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Default Re: The Road to Trillion Dollar Federal Deficit

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Originally Posted by ZenMaster
Perhaps the US needs better trade deals

the biggest, best deals ever. believe me. better than anyone thought. powerful deals.

or mexico will pay down our deficit.

either way.

maga.

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Old 09-14-2018, 03:27 PM   #18
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Default Re: The Road to Trillion Dollar Federal Deficit

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Originally Posted by Hawker
They faked it. They sit on their hands when they are in power. At the same time, you can't suddenly care about the deficit when you're not in power as a talking point. It's just as disingenuous.

The difference is Democrats say up front that they care about continuing to fund social programs even if it means raising taxes on the rich for the benefit of the middle-class.

Republicans say they care about the middle-class and the deficit but it's all a facade. Truth is Republicans primarily care about the rich and don't care at all whatsoever about the deficit - they run it up everytime there is a Republican president in the White House. By Bush/Trump deficit standards, Obama and Bill Clinton were vastly more fiscally responsible as they were instrumental in driving down the deficits while the succeeding president (both Republican) drove up deficits fast.

Republicans were much more respectable 30 years ago and before. Since then, it has been a laughingstock. The only thing that drives the party now is spreading fear. It is this fear that drives up military spending up the wazoo. Since they cater to the rich, it is also why we see massive tax cuts everytime they are in power and cuts to social programs. They have become a party for the rich.
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Old 09-14-2018, 04:40 PM   #19
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Default Re: The Road to Trillion Dollar Federal Deficit

As long as the dollar is the reserve currency.

Y'all know the only way this is going to end, regardless of which party runs the government, is in total, abrupt collapse? The Great Depression will look like kids play.

But we're years off that. Looking at the state of BRICS, the U.S has been very successfull in playing with the easy pickings.... Brazil, South Africa. Russia is semi-contained. Working to put India in our pocket. Still tho...Russia and China will carry the whole thing as it's Eurasia that's rising, regardless of the laggards elsewhere in the world. It's all a matter of time...decade would be too fast... 2 decades, half century? Good ballpark.

We'll see how much the can the can be kicked down the road before the whole empire comes crashing down. Corruption is endemic and not going away under any circumstance so the cancer is inoperable. $700B + defense spending a year Lagging by quite a margin on hypersonics to Russia... .... Subsidizing private space companies...

Last edited by PickernRoller : 09-14-2018 at 04:48 PM.
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Old 09-14-2018, 05:38 PM   #20
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Default Re: The Road to Trillion Dollar Federal Deficit

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Originally Posted by PickernRoller
We'll see how much the can the can be kicked down the road before the whole empire comes crashing down. Corruption is endemic and not going away under any circumstance so the cancer is inoperable. $700B + defense spending a year Lagging by quite a margin on hypersonics to Russia... .... Subsidizing private space companies...

-Military spending needs to be slashed down to maybe $350b to be more manageable. Not our job to police the world.
-We also need to bring down medical spending, which is currently outrageous. Cap prices on drugs if need be. Not our job to subsidize the world's medical research.
-Push for universal healthcare across the US and get rid of medicare/medicaid. Everyone should pay into universal healthcare through income taxes like everyone does now with medicare/medicaid. You can opt out and get private insurance if you are rich, but you still pay into universal healthcare. It will ultimately save some money in long-term.
-Open up marijuana legally across the US, but tax it heavily and only allow pot in private homes and designated smoking zones.
-Close down corporate loopholes. Tax shelters in places like Caymans, Bermuda, etc need to be dealt with because they are clearly there for tax evasion.
-End needless subsidies for coal, oil companies. Let coal die.. Dirty disgusting asbestos-causing sector that needs to go.
-Add in some carbon taxes so the more a company pollutes, the more they pay for polluting.
-Get rid of Trump taxcuts. Trickle-down effect my ass.. Taxcuts resulted in nothing but stock buyback.. Didn't trickle down to the middle-class.
-Cut NATO spending down to 3% of our GDP exactly annually from 3.6% it is now.

^ Changes like these will bring our deficit into positive gain surplus.
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Old 09-14-2018, 06:31 PM   #21
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Default Re: The Road to Trillion Dollar Federal Deficit

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Originally Posted by tpols
Yup... many trillions pissed away on bloated military expenses & expedentures (fake wars).





have that too, now that corporations are paying zilch.



Yeah, it's just military expenditures bro. Not entitlements and social programs.

Corporations are still paying taxes. They are just paying less as they should be. Much better for the economy.



More revenue coming in year after year but we choose to waste it instead. Revenue problem my ass.
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Old 09-14-2018, 06:53 PM   #22
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Default Re: The Road to Trillion Dollar Federal Deficit

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladefd
-Military spending needs to be slashed down to maybe $350b to be more manageable. Not our job to police the world.
-We also need to bring down medical spending, which is currently outrageous. Cap prices on drugs if need be. Not our job to subsidize the world's medical research.
-Push for universal healthcare across the US and get rid of medicare/medicaid. Everyone should pay into universal healthcare through income taxes like everyone does now with medicare/medicaid. You can opt out and get private insurance if you are rich, but you still pay into universal healthcare. It will ultimately save some money in long-term.
-Open up marijuana legally across the US, but tax it heavily and only allow pot in private homes and designated smoking zones.
-Close down corporate loopholes. Tax shelters in places like Caymans, Bermuda, etc need to be dealt with because they are clearly there for tax evasion.
-End needless subsidies for coal, oil companies. Let coal die.. Dirty disgusting asbestos-causing sector that needs to go.
-Add in some carbon taxes so the more a company pollutes, the more they pay for polluting.
-Get rid of Trump taxcuts. Trickle-down effect my ass.. Taxcuts resulted in nothing but stock buyback.. Didn't trickle down to the middle-class.
-Cut NATO spending down to 3% of our GDP exactly annually from 3.6% it is now.

^ Changes like these will bring our deficit into positive gain surplus.



So much wrong with this outside of the military spending cuts and medical system cuts. The only reason why universal healthcare exists in other countries is because we subsidize them so comparisons to other countries simply do not work.

Marijuana shouldn't be taxed. It'll just be taxed at a state and federal level...it'll just continue to be bought off the black market at a cheaper price by those who can't afford it. We going to then start prosecuting and jailing US citizens now for not paying taxes on marijuana? Surely, that won't affect certain classes of individuals you so claim to stand for as we all know it'll be poor people.

Corporate loopholes exist because taxes are already high. What makes you think they will just continue to do business as normal when you close this loophole and raise taxes? Why do you think companies are moving overseas in the first place?

Carbon taxes do jack shit. Emissions are already going down in the US despite not having them.

Stock buybacks existed before the tax cut. How can they be a result of a taxcut? And why are stock buybacks bad? That money given back to shareholders is straight cash who can then spend it elsewhere which...yes does help the middle class.



How did they get so much money to do stock buybacks in the first place? Oh I know. Massive amount of money injected into the economy by quantitative easing from the Federal Reserve.

Also, as far as I know, oil and gas don't receive subisidies but tax breaks/credits for expenses like every other corporation and individual.

No idea about coal.

Last edited by Hawker : 09-14-2018 at 06:58 PM.
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Old 09-14-2018, 06:57 PM   #23
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Default Re: The Road to Trillion Dollar Federal Deficit

The people that think it's just military spending tend to be brainwashed democrats just like the people that think it's just social programs tend to be brainwashed republicans.

You're all a bunch of brain dead assholes.

Spending needs to be cut almost across the board, in some more than others, of course.... but it's literally all a problem.
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Old 09-14-2018, 07:05 PM   #24
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Default Re: The Road to Trillion Dollar Federal Deficit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Russell
The people that think it's just military spending tend to be brainwashed democrats just like the people that think it's just social programs tend to be brainwashed republicans.

You're all a bunch of brain dead assholes.

Spending needs to be cut almost across the board, in some more than others, of course.... but it's literally all a problem.


Especially when it's so easy to google, "US government total spending pie chart" into google. And then find a reputable source that includes both mandatory and discretionary spending in one.

Bring military spending to pre Iaq war surge levels and I'm fine with that.

Kinda hilarious that 3% of the budget is education and that it's somehow some important piece of the pie and critical to the education of americans. Just cut it.
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Old 09-14-2018, 07:19 PM   #25
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Default Re: The Road to Trillion Dollar Federal Deficit

The United States is literally being robbed blind by central bankers and corporate powers and both sides of the aisle in terms of the public are completely ****ing oblivious and focused on pointing fingers at each other.

Bunch of stupid **********s tbh.
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Old 09-14-2018, 09:09 PM   #26
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Default Re: The Road to Trillion Dollar Federal Deficit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawker
So much wrong with this outside of the military spending cuts and medical system cuts. The only reason why universal healthcare exists in other countries is because we subsidize them so comparisons to other countries simply do not work.

We subsidize a huge chunk of medical research, which the world takes advantage of. Not our job to do so for the whole world.

What evidence do you have that we subsidize their healthcare too (excluding research for new drugs/treatments)?

Quote:
Marijuana shouldn't be taxed. It'll just be taxed at a state and federal level...it'll just continue to be bought off the black market at a cheaper price by those who can't afford it. We going to then start prosecuting and jailing US citizens now for not paying taxes on marijuana? Surely, that won't affect certain classes of individuals you so claim to stand for as we all know it'll be poor people.

You can still go after blackmarket pot. Last I checked, pot has to be grown and cultivated so you can prosecute those illegally growing + selling pot without a license.

And I'm not saying you throw on insane tax on a pinch of pot to make it unaffordable. Something reasonable.. like say 15-20% tax.

Quote:
Corporate loopholes exist because taxes are already high. What makes you think they will just continue to do business as normal when you close this loophole and raise taxes? Why do you think companies are moving overseas in the first place?

US's corporate tax is now 21%. Most countries are around 20-25%. That's not high relative to other nations. I don't mind leaving the corporate tax rate at 21%, but tax avoidance loopholes need to stop letting corporations get off paying no tax at all. Can you imagine you or me or some average Joe not paying their taxes? We would be thrown in jail by IRS lol

Companies are still doing most manufacturing overseas. Why? Because they can pay pennies to children in some disgusting conditioned sweatshop with no benefits, no healthcare, no overtime pay, nothing. How do you propose going up against that? Legalize sweatshops in USA? Perhaps allow US workers to get paid $2 a day for 8hrs of work? What do you propose?

Quote:
Carbon taxes do jack shit. Emissions are already going down in the US despite not having them.

Carbon taxes should work. I'm not sure how much revenue it would generate annually, but I reckon it would be in the billions.

It would also target coal the most since coal tends to emit the most CO2. It could be a way of shifting to renewable and sustainable energy sources. It makes no sense to me why conservatives continuously resist shifting to sustainable energy sources.. They think they know more than the scientists, but it's just foolish and ignorant position to take. They are falling right into the hands of oil companies like BP who hid the dangers of CO2 to the atmosphere for decades.

Quote:
Stock buybacks existed before the tax cut. How can they be a result of a taxcut? And why are stock buybacks bad? That money given back to shareholders is straight cash who can then spend it elsewhere which...yes does help the middle class.

How did they get so much money to do stock buybacks in the first place? Oh I know. Massive amount of money injected into the economy by quantitative easing from the Federal Reserve.

Explain this:


Wasn't the entire argument by Republicans for the tax cuts that the tax savings would trickle down to the middle-class workers, and improve the economy? Well, it didn't do either. Tax cuts made the deficit much worse

Quote:
Also, as far as I know, oil and gas don't receive subisidies but tax breaks/credits for expenses like every other corporation and individual.

No idea about coal.

Fossil fuels got $3.4 billion in federal subsidies in 2016, which I guess is not much when put against the overall deficit.
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Old 09-14-2018, 09:35 PM   #27
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Default Re: The Road to Trillion Dollar Federal Deficit

Quote:
Originally Posted by PickernRoller
As long as the dollar is the reserve currency.

Y'all know the only way this is going to end, regardless of which party runs the government, is in total, abrupt collapse? The Great Depression will look like kids play.

But we're years off that. Looking at the state of BRICS, the U.S has been very successfull in playing with the easy pickings.... Brazil, South Africa. Russia is semi-contained. Working to put India in our pocket. Still tho...Russia and China will carry the whole thing as it's Eurasia that's rising, regardless of the laggards elsewhere in the world. It's all a matter of time...decade would be too fast... 2 decades, half century? Good ballpark.

We'll see how much the can the can be kicked down the road before the whole empire comes crashing down. Corruption is endemic and not going away under any circumstance so the cancer is inoperable. $700B + defense spending a year Lagging by quite a margin on hypersonics to Russia... .... Subsidizing private space companies...


That's the crazy thing...Russia is a third world country yet they have the best nukes, which ultimately end game means they have the best military. So many tax dollars spent uselessly instead of building up its own citizen base. Our economy and general standing could've been galatically better if half the military budget was invested back into the country instead of supporting failed wars.
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Old 09-14-2018, 09:47 PM   #28
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Default Re: The Road to Trillion Dollar Federal Deficit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Russell
The United States is literally being robbed blind by central bankers and corporate powers and both sides of the aisle in terms of the public are completely ****ing oblivious and focused on pointing fingers at each other.

Bunch of stupid **********s tbh.
This is the hilarious tragedy of it all. This will sound like some conspiratory theorist bullshit, but it would not surprise me in the least that if the money trails were actually followed we would find out that they are funding many of the chaotic events.

The system is too easily gamed and these are some extremely smart sociopaths in the real positions of power pulling puppet strings to get laws that favor them repeatedly. Meanwhile, average Joe Blow is irate about Trump fist pumping or his football team losing. Ha, **** me we're doomed.
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Old 09-14-2018, 10:03 PM   #29
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Default Re: The Road to Trillion Dollar Federal Deficit

Quote:
Originally Posted by bladefd
We subsidize a huge chunk of medical research, which the world takes advantage of. Not our job to do so for the whole world.

What evidence do you have that we subsidize their healthcare too (excluding research for new drugs/treatments)?



You can still go after blackmarket pot. Last I checked, pot has to be grown and cultivated so you can prosecute those illegally growing + selling pot without a license.

And I'm not saying you throw on insane tax on a pinch of pot to make it unaffordable. Something reasonable.. like say 15-20% tax.



US's corporate tax is now 21%. Most countries are around 20-25%. That's not high relative to other nations. I don't mind leaving the corporate tax rate at 21%, but tax avoidance loopholes need to stop letting corporations get off paying no tax at all. Can you imagine you or me or some average Joe not paying their taxes? We would be thrown in jail by IRS lol

Companies are still doing most manufacturing overseas. Why? Because they can pay pennies to children in some disgusting conditioned sweatshop with no benefits, no healthcare, no overtime pay, nothing. How do you propose going up against that? Legalize sweatshops in USA? Perhaps allow US workers to get paid $2 a day for 8hrs of work? What do you propose?



Carbon taxes should work. I'm not sure how much revenue it would generate annually, but I reckon it would be in the billions.

It would also target coal the most since coal tends to emit the most CO2. It could be a way of shifting to renewable and sustainable energy sources. It makes no sense to me why conservatives continuously resist shifting to sustainable energy sources.. They think they know more than the scientists, but it's just foolish and ignorant position to take. They are falling right into the hands of oil companies like BP who hid the dangers of CO2 to the atmosphere for decades.



Explain this:


Wasn't the entire argument by Republicans for the tax cuts that the tax savings would trickle down to the middle-class workers, and improve the economy? Well, it didn't do either. Tax cuts made the deficit much worse



Fossil fuels got $3.4 billion in federal subsidies in 2016, which I guess is not much when put against the overall deficit.

Tax incentives are not subsidies. They are not receiving direct dollars from the taxpayer. Keeping more of your money is not a subsidy.

Do you really think it's a good use of resource to go after blackmarket pot? We still are wasting time/resources on a plant. The people selling pot on the black market are likely of a poorer class as well. Yes, let's continue to hammer on individuals committing harmless acts.

You have to lower regulations quite substantially in the US to keep up with other countries. And what other options do those individuals have in those sweatshops other than working? What's the alternative? Die? Free market is working in that aspect. If you recognize it's more expensive to operate here in the US, why do you continue to propose regulations that will increase expenses even more? How does that promote economic growth to make it more expensive to conduct business? We all just gonna live off the government?

And you want to forcibly shift to sustainable resources which will increase electricity and power prices affecting the poorest people of the nation who can't afford it. You want to pick the winners and losers of the energy industry. Again, emissions are going down in the US without any of your proposals. It's unnecessary.

Tax cuts didn't make the deficit worse. Spending made it much worse. Tax revenue is UP. And money/cash that goes back to the shareholders can then be spent elsewhere. That money being spent elsewhere can drive growth in other sectors of the economy, keep businesses going and individuals employed that otherwise wouldn't.

Less money given to the government is always better and more moral. Even if 20% are going to more jobs, how is that not a win? That's 20% more than before. Would you rather have not had those jobs created?
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Old 09-15-2018, 09:52 AM   #30
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Default Re: The Road to Trillion Dollar Federal Deficit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawker
Revenue is still up despite the tax cut so don't see how it's related. Still a spending issue...not a tax cut issue.

The revenue increase by percentage is the smallest I believe we have seen since the recession. The Trump administration estimated that revenue would grow more and that the deficit would be smaller than what we are currently seeing. Unsurprisingly, independent analysts were pretty accurate in their assessment.

Quote:
Giving more money to the government isn't a good thing. Allowing business and individuals to keep it is always better.

The problem is that money is needed for a myriad of essential government functions and programs. Republicans consistently advocate for a government run on a shoe-string budget and then complain when things don't run well, using those failures as a justification for defunding and privatization. A few years ago, conservatives were complaining about FEMA and even wanted to withhold additional funds from Hurricane Sandy victims. Now FEMA is a darling as red states are being hit with natural disasters.

More money in the hands of individuals is a great thing. People and their spending drive our economy; businesses only thrive when people have money and spend it on goods and services. More money in the hand of businesses would be a great thing if we could ensure that businesses would reinvest much of that money in their employees and the US economy. The truth of the matter is that many businesses don't; they find ways to move their profits overseas to avoid taxes and so that they can invest in new, emerging, more exciting markets. They use tax cuts to buy back stock and provide higher salaries, bonuses, and more stock options to their executives. They complain that taxes are stymying their ability to conduct research and invest in their businesses, but when they get tax cuts, research and investments find themselves at the bottom of the priority list. Why? Because these corporations always had enough, and in many cases, more than enough, for research and investment. Their cries and pleas weren't about how cash-strapped they were. Rather, they simply wanted to hold onto more profit. It's the nature of capitalism.

Quote:
The deficit still existed under Obama so I don't really see how that's a positive. Going down or not...it's still a deficit...and it's growing.There are graphs showing the debt increasing shit tons under Obama. The "percent of GDP" is really a BS number.

The deficit spiked in 2009 as a result of the recession and then saw a consistent decrease under Obama as the economy improved. Let's not forget that Obama inherited a recession and two wars. The positive is that progress was made in reducing the amount that was added to the national debt each year, even under those conditions. Under Trump, we have reversed that trend significantly. Republicans complained throughout Obama's tenure that the economy was terrible and are now exclaiming that the economy is great, yet somehow our deficit decreased under Obama and is exploding under Trump.

Quote:
Anyway, mainstream keynesian economists say that deficit spending promotes economic growth. Just following their advice.

Yes, deficit spending is helpful when a stimulus is needed in an attempt to pull out of a recession or when the economy is generally anemic. Remember how opposed to the stimulus Republicans were? However, if we are to believe that the economy is only now great after Trump took office, there is little need for the ridiculous deficits we'll be seeing over the next decade. As the economy improves further, the deficit should be shrinking further. But Republicans are now living in Bizarro world where large deficits are good, after spending the last decade complaining about deficits. I wonder what changed... lol.
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