How many titles do the Shaq Lakers win with Ray Allen instead of Kobe?

[ripthekik]

3 or 4

the hate is strong, bro

[Nash]

He'd win maybe two. Ray is fantastic and at his prime averaged around 25 and more as well.

[Dragonyeuw]

2, possibly 3.

It seems like people forgot how much flat out more talent those Lakers teams had over everyone else.

Those early 2000 Blazers and Kings were generally considered more talented from top to bottom. Note I said more talented, that doesn't always equate to better( though the 2002 Kings would argue the wrong team won). The Lakers simply had the two best players with by far the most dominant, immovable force in Shaq, with a cast of solid role players. Who came after Shaq and Kobe? Derek Fisher? Aging Ron Harper/Horace Grant/AC Green? Samaki Walker? Kareem Rush? Rick Fox? Robert Horry? Deven George? Mark Madsen Those guys ain't scaring anybody.

Compare that to the 2000 Blazers:

Rasheed Wallace
Scottie Pippen
Steve Smith
Brian Grant
Damon Stoudamire
Detlef Schrempt( spelling?)
Bonzai Wells
Ardvdas Sabonis

That team was ridiculously talented and deep. The Lakers were never the most talented overall team in any of their early 2000's runs.They were very top-heavy with Shaq and Kobe accounting for about half of the team's points. Shaq was at his absolute peak, and Kobe in the 2001 playoffs probably played as well as I've ever seen him, taking offense/defense/playmaking into account. You had the most dominant force in the league, and the best two-way shooting guard by far playing at an incredible level. You could have surrounded them with pretty much any set of competent role players with the system they were running, and get the same results.

[pegasus]

0. Maybe 1 if they get lucky like Lebron did last year with shortened season, injuries to other superstars, etc.

Ray has never been a superstar or a consistent shot creator for himself and others. Fisher and Ray guard duo would not work, not in triangle, not in rectangle.

[red1]

I agree with those who say they lose to the kings and blazers. While there will be a dropoff in talent level, this duo will probably have better chemistry, and prime ray absolutely could create his own shot. Assuming they play together for the same period of time - 1 or 2 rings.

[TheBigVeto]

7 rings

[RRR3]

0. Maybe 1 if they get lucky like Lebron did last year with shortened season, injuries to other superstars, etc.

Ray has never been a superstar or a consistent shot creator for himself and others. Fisher and Ray guard duo would not work, not in triangle, not in rectangle.

This gu is obsessed with LeBron. Sad.
Literally can't post w/o whining about LeBron

[red1]

This gu is obsessed with LeBron. Sad.
Literally can't post w/o whining about LeBron

He is one of the most consistently negative posters here, usually posts to insult or criticize players

[RRR3]

He is one of the most consistently negative posters here, usually posts to insult or criticize Heat players, namely LeBron

fixed. Guy is pathetic.

[Rowe]

0. Maybe 1 if they get lucky like Lebron did last year with shortened season, injuries to other superstars, etc.

Ray has never been a superstar or a consistent shot creator for himself and others. Fisher and Ray guard duo would not work, not in triangle, not in rectangle.

This is absolutely retarded.

Ray Allen during that period of time wasn't as talented as Kobe from an all around standpoint but he was a very good player. Kobe had more upside to evolve into an Elite player, but Ray for many years was more skilled on offense. You say Ray was a poor shot creator for teammates and that is another bold-faced lie. Ray at many times would initiate a Bucks offense in the halfcourt that was the most efficient offense in the NBA. The Bucks offense was more efficient than the Lakers, even when Phil introduced the Triangle.

Ray Allen would've received more credit & praise as a star player had he not been playing in Milwaukee back when the only place you could see Bucks games was on SportsCenter highlights. You can say the same for Glenn Robinson too. Ray Allen had already established himself among the top 5 mid-range & 3 point shooters in the NBA by 1999, which was 4 years into his career. Keep in mind this was back before the rule changes which made it extremely hard for shooters like him to get space and hit jumpshots. Thats why his numbers exploded after the league stopped hand-checking, if it was like that when he came into the league he would've averaged 20+ each season of his career.

I feel like its a shame that so many people on here don't know Ray Allen was a tremendous player & athlete because their only image of him is being an old spot shooter in Boston who was a weak link defensively.

[Rowe]

The Lakers would've won 5 Championships. 5 straight between 2000-2004.

Ray was a far better fit for the triangle offense than Kobe, mainly because he lacked the creativity or the mindset Kobe has to break free of the offense and attempt to take over a game by himself.

He would've been nearly unstoppable in an offense that involves movement and being able to hit shots from different spots on the floor revolving around the post. With the most dominant inside post player like Shaq, he would have averaged nearly 25 PPG just on that alone. We are not talking about the Ray Allen that arrived in Boston with 12 NBA seasons of wear & tear on his legs + 3 years of college basketball. We are talking about the agile, athletic, & smooth scorer he was in his early-mid 20's. When his jumpshot wasn't falling when he was younger he started attacking the basket and drawing fouls, unlike what happens now due to his old legs. A younger Ray Allen actually could slide & rotate when he was 25 years old compared to him being a defensive liability at 35 years old in Boston.

[pegasus]

This is absolutely retarded.

Ray Allen during that period of time wasn't as talented as Kobe from an all around standpoint but he was a very good player. Kobe had more upside to evolve into an Elite player, but Ray for many years was more skilled on offense. You say Ray was a poor shot creator for teammates and that is another bold-faced lie. Ray at many times would initiate a Bucks offense in the halfcourt that was the most efficient offense in the NBA. The Bucks offense was more efficient than the Lakers, even when Phil introduced the Triangle.

Ray Allen would've received more credit & praise as a star player had he not been playing in Milwaukee back when the only place you could see Bucks games was on SportsCenter highlights. You can say the same for Glenn Robinson too. Ray Allen had already established himself among the top 5 mid-range & 3 point shooters in the NBA by 1999, which was 4 years into his career. Keep in mind this was back before the rule changes which made it extremely hard for shooters like him to get space and hit jumpshots. Thats why his numbers exploded after the league stopped hand-checking, if it was like that when he came into the league he would've averaged 20+ each season of his career.

I feel like its a shame that so many people on here don't know Ray Allen was a tremendous player & athlete because their only image of him is being an old spot shooter in Boston who was a weak link defensively.

You're talking to the wrong person. I have watched Ray in his prime, and I do remember the big-3 in Milwaukee. Funny that you didn't even mention Cassell in your post. It's almost like your only image of him is being an old bench player in Boston.

I didn't say Ray was a poor shot creator. I just said that he wasn't consistent, you know, at a superstar level, which would be a requirement for that version of Lakers to win a single title, let alone more. And one more thing... I don't think Ray was a weak link defensively in Boston. He guarded Kobe better than anyone (or at least as well as Tony Allen did) in the league in both finals match-ups, so maybe you need to reevaluate his image of him in your mind.

[lakers_forever]

This is absolutely retarded.

The Lakers would've won 5 Championships. 5 straight between 2000-2004.

Ray was a far better fit for the triangle offense than Kobe, mainly because he lacked the creativity or the mindset Kobe has to break free of the offense and attempt to take over a game by himself.

[pegasus]

fixed. Guy is pathetic.

Don't you have a picture of you somewhere on the internet that you could photoshop to look less creepy? Now go get busy with that and leave me alone, stalker.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

2, possibly 3.

It seems like people forgot how much flat out more talent those Lakers teams had over everyone else. It wasn't just the Kobe-Shaq show, it was the case in 2004, and they got killed by Detroit.

Uhh outside of 2001 when Fisher, Horry and Fox played some of their best ball the Lakers were pretty much a 2 man show. 2000 was a good defensive squad but by 2002 it was pretty much Kobe/Shaq and a bunch of trash.