Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > NBA Team Forums > Houston Rockets Forum

Houston Rockets Forum Houston Rockets message board - rockets fan forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-18-2006, 03:31 PM   #166
KWALI
erudite
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,112
KWALI has an OK reputation so far
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Not really. It's called motion off the ball. Not that Magic couldn't have scored on Jordan in the post, because of course he could have, but not "every time" like you said. Go watch those Finals again and see if Jordan looks overmatched in the post.
He would have scored easily at a very high clip....No one scores everytime but MJ couldn't do what he did to most guard to Magic.......so you finally see it....it's not just those finals becuz PIPPEn was the primary cover of Magic in the finals......If I only have to get up to cover a guy three to fie possessions it's different than if I have to cover him an entire game....Magic wears on you with his size.....it's like TD covering SHAQ in teh clutch but allowing Rasho to take most of the beating...of course with his speed he can look half decent covering Magic occaisionally in an entire game....he gets waxed.


Quote:
lol I'm almost certainly a better basketball player than you, though that's neither here nor there. Never played ball? Pfft...

Possible but I doubt it the way you talk about 15+ of muscle making no difference on guys the same height when used properly. Where you at I'll come ball on you...if you live in a city I don't go to country areas in North america....I am black.


Quote:
Yeah, if they're wide bodies. A guy being 5-10 pounds heavier while having the same exact frame as you shouldn't give you too much trouble down low. If they're 10 pounds heavier AND that weight/muscle is distributed differently (i.e., they're broader or more compact/have a lower center of mass), then that can create problems since you won't be able to get around them as easily, as you noted. Drex and MJ had basically the same body type, however.

Yeah they had the same FRAME but their muscle mass on teh frames was different...Clyde is bigger in the lower body....and bigger overally....though MJ's a bit more toned....
Quote:
Anyhow, enough of this. Anyone who watches the '92 Finals will see that Jordan never had any trouble posting up Drexler, which is what you asserted.

Actually that's not what I asserted at all...What I said is that I was dissappointed with Drexler's perfomance becuz he didn't play physically.....He was one of the few guards who while not quite as explosive could match up with MJ physically and use his body as an advantge...but he didn't....Dejordan is trying to say Clyde played the post.....

Clyde is like VC doesn't play phsicallys enoough to take full advantage...tha same reason MJ could bother VC in the post as a old guy is the same reason Clyde could never get off against MJ in teh 92 finals...they don't know how to use their bodies to take away teh defneders space and get them off balance.
KWALI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2006, 03:38 PM   #167
KWALI
erudite
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,112
KWALI has an OK reputation so far
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dejordan
kwali, i gotta tell you, for a guy who didn't know how to play smart, clyde played a long time... even after a bum knee took the glyde out of his game... he also meshed with different play styles like a thinker does... i never met him and haven't really read anything to do with his bball IQ, but i'm not sure how you manage to call a guy who averaged 18 pts a night at 35 yrs old while sharing the ball with hakeem and charles and playing on one leg simply a talented player. maybe i'm wrong, and you're differentiating between good instincts and good smarts...

Any guy who doesn't do what I am talking about is not in the top level of Basketball IQ.....your just aren't.....He played for a long time becuz even on one knee he's in teh top 99% of athletes in teh NBA EVER.......I am over simplifying/exaggerating when I say he wasn't "smart" I should say he was offensivley one dimensional and defensively aloof.

As an offensive player if you can score in away that puts pressure on teh defenseand draws the defense of the opposing team off balance you are a better player, and you have more impact, than a guy with the same numbers as you.

CLYDe put up huge numbers but he took ill advised shots even when he shot well....when you covered Clyde he only really pressured you with the first step....with his size he should have really gone in the post and fouled players out and caused more rotation in the D......as it was when he got the ball down low he tried to shoot without being touched.......that was the weakest part od his game
KWALI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2006, 03:38 PM   #168
eliteballer
NBA rookie of the year
 
eliteballer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,500
eliteballer has a terrific reputationeliteballer has a terrific reputationeliteballer has a terrific reputationeliteballer has a terrific reputationeliteballer has a terrific reputationeliteballer has a terrific reputation
Default

Don't bother with him Kwali, dude once said Jordan regularly guarded centers in the post
eliteballer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2006, 05:09 PM   #169
Indian guy
Very good NBA starter
 
Indian guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Illinois
Posts: 8,481
Indian guy has decent reputation
Default

I recently watched all 5 games of the '91 Finals and MJ definitely looked overmatched guarding Magic. I've no clue Y the Bulls didn't just permenantly switch Pippen on Magic from the middle of Game 2 onwards once EVERYBODY could clearly see he was doing the better job. MJ was giving a good 3 inches and significant pounds to Magic. He never looked comfortable guarding him and was almost ALWAYS calling for help when Magic posted up. The damage was limited though because the '91 Bulls played better help D than probably anybody in NBA history. Horace was everywhere on defense in that series and that entire Bulls team collapsed and recovered in no time. That's how they made LA's offense look so darn pathetic.

I've never seen a better defender than MJ when guarding players his own size and lower is concerned, but Magic was out of his league.
Indian guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2006, 05:29 PM   #170
Loki
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,079
Loki is considered somewhat coolLoki is considered somewhat cool
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KWALI
it's not just those finals becuz PIPPEn was the primary cover of Magic in the finals......If I only have to get up to cover a guy three to fie possessions it's different than if I have to cover him an entire game....Magic wears on you with his size.....it's like TD covering SHAQ in teh clutch but allowing Rasho to take most of the beating...of course with his speed he can look half decent covering Magic occaisionally in an entire game....he gets waxed.

Actually, Pippen only guarded Magic about 40-50% of the time in those Finals: game 2 quarters 2-4, nearly all of game 3, about 50% of game 4, and only about 20-30% of game 5. Jordan guarded Magic all of game 1, the first quarter of game 2, 10% or so of game 3, about half of game 4, and 70-80% of game 5. Watch the series, don't just read the recaps. ;)


Quote:
Originally Posted by KWALI
Actually that's not what I asserted at all...What I said is that I was dissappointed with Drexler's perfomance becuz he didn't play physically...

Looking back over the thread, you're right -- you didn't claim that Jordan didn't/couldn't post Clyde up. I seem to have gotten you confused with Gotterdammerung and L. Kizzle, both of whom made that argument. Apologies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliteballer
Don't bother with him Kwali, dude once said Jordan regularly guarded centers in the post

No, I didn't.

Last edited by Loki : 09-18-2006 at 05:31 PM.
Loki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2006, 07:45 PM   #171
dejordan
Mars Blackmon Lives!
 
dejordan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,322
dejordan has an OK reputation so far
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KWALI
Any guy who doesn't do what I am talking about is not in the top level of Basketball IQ.....your just aren't.....He played for a long time becuz even on one knee he's in teh top 99% of athletes in teh NBA EVER.......I am over simplifying/exaggerating when I say he wasn't "smart" I should say he was offensivley one dimensional and defensively aloof.

As an offensive player if you can score in away that puts pressure on teh defenseand draws the defense of the opposing team off balance you are a better player, and you have more impact, than a guy with the same numbers as you.

CLYDe put up huge numbers but he took ill advised shots even when he shot well....when you covered Clyde he only really pressured you with the first step....with his size he should have really gone in the post and fouled players out and caused more rotation in the D......as it was when he got the ball down low he tried to shoot without being touched.......that was the weakest part od his game
i completely agree that putting pressure on the d through drives and posts makes a bigger impact, and i'm constantly frustrated when kobe, mcgrady and (esp) carter sit behind the three point and hope. clyde did it to, and it frustrated me then.

that doesn't mean that i lack bball intellect. clyde playing in the post displaces buck williams, chucky brown, kevin duckworth, and jerome kersey, none of whom could hit a shot past 15 feet at the time. i'm sure you realize that that makes a duckworth (a defenseless 7 footer who didn't rebound well but made the all-star game at his peak) completely useless. i'm also sure that you understand that team chemistry is important and determines a lot of the plays a coach calls and that the area of their games that most players work on is directly related to what their coaches actually need them to do. so you clearly wouldn't want clyde in the post as a prime option for the blazers because it forces the team to play a two man game with poor spacing and limits the effectiveness of 3 starters. rick addleman didn't want clyde to get doubled in the post with no outlet, since there's no need to leave porter, and no one else in the starting lineup shoots, dribbles or passes at a high level. on the rockets having hakeem, barkley, kevin willis, and chucky brown clear out of the paint for clyde to get down there and post up minimizes the skills of those 4.

however when clyde played like a traditional 2 guard, spaced the floor for his big men, and pressured the defense with his drives (reggie miller called clyde the second hardest guy he ever had to defend), his teams consitently made it to the finals or conference finals.

that whole blazers team could be accused of making bad decisions, but playing to the strengths of their roster by posting their bigs and spacing with their guards probably wasn't one of them. on another team drexlers lack of post-presence might have been more of a detriment, but he might have become a better post player if his number were called on the block more often.
dejordan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2006, 09:33 AM   #172
KWALI
erudite
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,112
KWALI has an OK reputation so far
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Actually, Pippen only guarded Magic about 40-50% of the time in those Finals: game 2 quarters 2-4, nearly all of game 3, about 50% of game 4, and only about 20-30% of game 5. Jordan guarded Magic all of game 1, the first quarter of game 2, 10% or so of game 3, about half of game 4, and 70-80% of game 5. Watch the series, don't just read the recaps. ;)


I guess my memory fails me but the guy who was up in Magics ass in my memory is PIPPEN....see above for what I was talking about when I saw MJ covering him....I guess it didn't matter becuz they basically won game three on a semi prayer....and dominatred no matter what MAGIC did after that....I just remeber him being able to actually get the the rim and dunk pretty easily on either PIPPEn or MJ by using the spin moves from the mid post and trying to use that to inspire the Lakers ....but the team being outplayed everywhere else and having no answer for the Bulls team speed 1-5.

I rememer we used to say PIPPEN gave Magic AIDS how far up he was in his ASS......I guess MJ's defense either didn't draw my attention or was mostly above the fouline extended area.

Still my point is he was toast agaisnt MAGIC becuz he never had teh leverage or the height or teh strength to deal with MAgic eveyone else.......he dealt with easly...which surprised me.

And you never said where your at hopefully your in a warm local I am going to ATL and MIAMI for your Thanksgiving holiday....last week of November....
KWALI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2006, 09:42 AM   #173
KWALI
erudite
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,112
KWALI has an OK reputation so far
Default Huh

Quote:
Originally Posted by dejordan
i completely agree that putting pressure on the d through drives and posts makes a bigger impact, and i'm constantly frustrated when kobe, mcgrady and (esp) carter sit behind the three point and hope. clyde did it to, and it frustrated me then.

that doesn't mean that i lack bball intellect. clyde playing in the post displaces buck williams, chucky brown, kevin duckworth, and jerome kersey, none of whom could hit a shot past 15 feet at the time. i'm sure you realize that that makes a duckworth (a defenseless 7 footer who didn't rebound well but made the all-star game at his peak) completely useless. i'm also sure that you understand that team chemistry is important and determines a lot of the plays a coach calls and that the area of their games that most players work on is directly related to what their coaches actually need them to do. so you clearly wouldn't want clyde in the post as a prime option for the blazers because it forces the team to play a two man game with poor spacing and limits the effectiveness of 3 starters. rick addleman didn't want clyde to get doubled in the post with no outlet, since there's no need to leave porter, and no one else in the starting lineup shoots, dribbles or passes at a high level. on the rockets having hakeem, barkley, kevin willis, and chucky brown clear out of the paint for clyde to get down there and post up minimizes the skills of those 4.

Though observations here are true to an extent none of his teamates had a post game NONE....BUCK WILLIAMS WAS HORRILBE in the post HORRIBLE...Clyde regularly posting and drawing doubles would have been nuts becuz they could all be cutters and Clyde was a good and willing passer and DUc's favorite shot was that soft one hander at the top of the key. U are also underrating Kersey's Baseline J at the time of the 1992 Finals and forgetting Cliff Robinson who while not a starter was a uselful as any of their front court players and actually in Houston they did displace those guys to get clyde the ball in teh post...I remeber him roasting Penny...it seems as he aged he decided the post was an area he coudl thrive.....he thought of it too late
Quote:
however when clyde played like a traditional 2 guard, spaced the floor for his big men, and pressured the defense with his drives (reggie miller called clyde the second hardest guy he ever had to defend), his teams consitently made it to the finals or conference finals.

that whole blazers team could be accused of making bad decisions, but playing to the strengths of their roster by posting their bigs and spacing with their guards probably wasn't one of them. on another team drexlers lack of post-presence might have been more of a detriment, but he might have become a better post player if his number were called on the block more often.

In that series he could have disabled the Bulls Engine...Michael Jordan....the guy going off hitting 6 threes in a half and destroying him on the other end by putting pressure on MJ on the defensive end...As one of the few guys who had the tools to do this his feeble attempt forever taints his memory...as I said in another thread this is D-Rob vs Hakeem......agaisnt every other team Drexler was 99% as good as MJ but when they met up his inability to take advantage of what coudl have been a mismatch made him look lesser than a close equal to MJ....

OUT
KWALI is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:48 PM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site















Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy