Kareem before Magic.

[ThunderStruk022]

LOL, I did see him play and you have to be a kid to present yourself like this. Since you think you are adult enough to talk to a man, tell me why the league was such trouble before Bird and Magic? Would you start a franchise in a crumbling market? Was Kareem the man bringing value to the market? There was certainly a market crisis and why did Magic get the franchise handed to him on a platter after Kareem had 7 years there? Hmmmm, Speak up.

And you're a Wilt fanboy who is manipulating what defines a franchise player in order to try and convince others Kareem was worse than he really was.

[ThunderStruk022]

A large reason why he won 5 MVPs was because of the ABA/NBA competition.

If the ABA/NBA had merged earlier and in the start of the 70s opposed to 76, Julius Erving and other ABA superstars at the time would have more than likely taken a few of Kareem's MVPs.

What ABA player not named Julius Erving, would've been a serious threat to Kareem's "Best Player in the World" throne and Kareem's MVP barrage in the 70s?

There were good players in the ABA but the only one on or close to Kareem's level was Erving.

[Pointguard]

A 35/18, 66 win season leading, 5 time MVP who won a ring and made another finals.....and you are asking if he was a franchise player?

Really?

This is looking like a topic I need to either delete or stay out of. I cant read this garbage and ignore it. Im gonna go with staying out for the moment......

Oh so now a destitute business major is going to tell me that when an industry fails and falls on your clock, go to your past successes and that's good enough. Would you invest in a failing project? Was he good enough to get a franchise contract from the Lakers like the one given on his clock. Was he winning and holding down what was set up for him? From '75 to '79 things were going down south and nobody was consistently handling their business... in the league. Franchise is about a safe projection of future success. Where was the success at?

Its truly disrespectful for you to come at me with threats like you on some quality control??? Are you even reading these boards? You're a monitor and step up on me when I wonder where you are, 80% the time. I know in the past our debates have left you foul, but comon man. Ohh and thanks for leaving out the next line where I describe Franchise above which might have helped you understand what other poster have contributed. Am I asking too much from you??? Keep reading the thread before you reply.

[Pointguard]

And you're a Wilt fanboy who is manipulating what defines a franchise player in order to try and convince others Kareem was worse than he really was.

I couldn't care less about making Kareem look worse. I like Kareem because he stood up as a man in troubled times. Kareem was the undisputed best player at that time for a period longer than Wilt was in his time. He was what he was but Franchise is a business term really based on success and projections. In basketball most people bank on success and charisma. Which is why Magic got the franchise contract.

[jlauber]

While Kareem was the best player of the decade of the 70's, IMHO, he and his team's underachieved.

He won ONE ring, in a post-season in which his 66-16 Bucks routed a 41-41 Warrior team; then bounced a 48-34 Laker team without BOTH West and Baylor (and in which a Wilt, in his WORST season, battled him to a statistical draw...and in fact, received a standing ovation from the MILWAUKEE crowd in the their last game); and then swept a 42-40 Bullets team in the Finals.

How about the rest of the decade?

His '70 56-26 Bucks were shredded by the 60-22 Knicks in five games. Kareem played well in four of them. Guess which game he did not? In the clinching game five loss (132-96) Reed outplayed him.

Covered '70-71 already. IMHO, his greatest season of his career.

71-72. Kareem played 44 mpg on a team that went 63-19, and had a +11.1 scoring differential. In that season he averaged a career high 34.8 ppg, grabbed 16.6 rpg, handed out 4.6 apg, and shot .574 (in a league that shot .455.) Why do I bring that up you ask? Because Wilt was accused of "stats-padding" in his career. Remember this later on.

Kareem destroyed the NBA in the regular season in 71-72. However, even with him scoing 40 ppg on ,500 shooting against Wilt in five H2H's, Chamberlain led a Laker team that had gone 48-34 the year before (and virtually NO ONE picked them to do anything in 71-72) to a 69-13 record, and a resounding 4-1 series record against Kareem's Bucks. Kareem scored 50 points against Wilt in one game, in which the Lakers wiped out his Bucks, 123-107, and took 39 shots in doing, while being outrebounded by Chamberlain, 25-8.

After Kareem had dominated the NBA in '71, and then waltzed to a title and a FMVP in the post-season, most experts predicted that he and his young Bucks would become the next great dynasty. However, those "experts" forgot to tell the rest of the league. Not only that, but during his 71-72 regular season, he was just waxing his opposing centers (e.g. 44 ppg against Cowens), and ultimately the game came too easy, and too early, for him. IMHO, he "let up" after that.

In the first round of the 71-72 playoffs, Kareem was badly outplayed by Nate Thurmond. Thurmond not only outscored and outshot Kareem, he held Kareem to .405 shooting in the process. Still, Kareem's Bucks were so talented, that they blew away the 51-31 Warriors, 4-1 in the first round.

In the WCF's, Kareem's Bucks blew open the first game, and beat a Laker team that had averaged 121 ppg during the regular season, 93-72. Virtually everyone predicted an easy Bucks win in that series.

However, from that point on, Chamberlain took over the series. The Lakers won four of the next five games, including a blowout win in game five, 115-90, and then a stunning come-from-behind win in Milwaukee in game six. Kareem shot .457 in that series, which was way below his regular season of .574, but not only that, he only shot .414 over the course of the last four pivotal games of that series, and was completely pounded and OUTRUN by Chamberlain in the clinching game six loss.

Virtually EVERYONE who witnessed the '72 WCF's, claimed a "win" by a 35 year old Chamberlain over the 25 year old Kareem. Even the Milwaukee press hailed Wilt as having outplayed Kareem. Time Magazine even went to so far as to declare Wilt as having DECISIVELY outplayed Kareem in that series.

72-73. Kareem's Bucks went 60-22, which tied Wilt's Lakers for the best record in the west. And in their six H2H games, Kareem only shot .450 against a 36 year old Wilt (who shot an eye-popping .737 against Kareem.) Chamberlain even outscored Kareem in one game, 24-21, while outshooting him, 10-14 to 10-27.

In the first round of the playoffs, Kareem once again was matched up against Nate Thurmond's 47-35 Warriors. And in a stunning upset, the Warriors knocked out the heavily-favored Bucks, 4-2. And once again, Kareem couldn't hit the ocean from a life-boat, only shooting .428 in that series. As a sidenote, Chamberlain just crushed Thurmond in the WCF's, and led his Lakers to a 4-1 romp over his Warriors. (I was at game three in Oakland, when the Lakers destroyed GS by a 126-70 margin. The frisby show at halftime was the Warriors biggest highlight.)

73-74. Wilt "retired" after the 72-73 season, and now the door was wide open for Kareem to dominate the NBA. He led his Bucks to the best record in the league, at 59-23, and they easily advanced to the Finals, where they faced Cowens' 56-26 Celtics. Kareem was brilliant in the first six games, including hitting the game winner in game six. That set up a game seven, in Milwaukee, which would finally give Kareem his second ring. Except that no one told Cowens. Cowens took over the game, even with five fouls, and badly outplayed Kareem down the stretch (while outscoring, outrebounding, and outshooting him for the game.) Boston won in a rout.

74-75. Oscar retired after the 73-74 Finals. How much umpact did that have? The Bucks plummetted to a 38-44 record. Granted, Kareem foolishly busted his hand, and missed 16 games (the Bucks went 3-13 in them.) And Lucious Allen was injured for much of the season, as well. Still, even with Kareem, the Bucks only went 35-31.

The Bucks didn't even make the playoffs, either. Not only that, but then Rick Barry, with rookie Jamaal Wilkes (Keith at the time) and a cast of no-names, went 48-34, and then won the title. Remember Wilkes.

75-76. Milwaukee finally gives up on a declining and unmotivated Kareem. They ship him off to LA for a slew of players and picks. Even without Kareem, they still go 38-44 in 75-76.

Meanwhile, Kareem came to a Laker team that had gone 30-52 the year before. True, they had some talent, like Gail Goodrich and Cazzie Russell, but clearly, they needed a big season from Kareem.

This is where Kareem's career becomes interesting. Remember Kareem's 71-72 season, when he played 44.2 mpg, and led the NBA in scoring at 34.8 ppg (on .574 shooting), on a Bucks team that had gone 63-19 and had a scoring differential of +11.1 ppg?

Here was Kareem's chance to prove to the world that he was a "Chamberlain-type" player. Now he could really take over and put up huge numbers. BTW, in '74, '75, and then in '76, Bob McAdoo averaged 30.6 ppg, 34.5 ppg, and 31.1 ppg. So, clearly the opportunity was there for Kareem to challenge many of Wilt's records.

Except...Kareem DECLINED. He could only go 41.2 mpg. And while he did score 27.7 ppg, it came on .529 shooting, which was one of the WORST seasons of his career. He did lead a weak group in rebounding, at 16.9 rpg (Cowens was next at 16.0 rpg), but overall, it was very disappointing season. BTW, that was the only time in Kareem's 20 year career that he led the NBA in rpg. The Lakers only went 40-42, and once again, Kareem missed the playoffs.

76-77. The Lakers, with a year together under their belts, go 53-29 and have the best record in the league. Kareem has a strong season, with a 26.2 ppg, 13.3 rpg, .579 season (his only time that he would lead the NBA in FG%.)

In the post-season, Kareem erupts against the Warriors, putting up a huge series, and his Lakers win in seven games. They moved on to battle Walton's 49-33 Blazers. Kareem crushed Walton in game two, with a 40 point performance, but his team still lost. In the other three games, Walton basically matches Kareem, and is better in the clutch. The Blazers would SWEEP Kareem's Lakers.

BTW, some here have suggested that this was Kareem's greatest season. Statistically, it wasn't even close to his 70-71 and 71-72 seasons. Not only that, but players like Gilmore and Lanier were outscoring him in their seasonal H2H's. He was no longer just blowing away the NBA centers.

77-78. Laker management is committed to bringing a title to LA. They would bring in players like Lou Hudson, Norm Nixon, Charlie Scott, and a fellow by the name of Jamaal Wilkes (remember him from the '75 Warriors?) THEN, they traded for Adrian Dantley, who was averaging 27 ppg when they brought him in. LA is CLEARLY the most talented team in the league.

Yet, even with ALL of that talent, the Lakers would only go 45-37. Then, they were slapped in the first round of the playoffs by a 47-35 Sonics team with ONE borderline HOF player (Dennis Johnson.) A MAJOR under-achieving season. Incidently, the 44-38 Bullets would win the title.

78-79. The core of that talent-laden team now has a year under their belts. Players like Nixon, Wilkes, Hudson, and Dantley. The result? A 47-35 Laker team that would again be wiped out by the Sonics in the second round, 4-1.

Furthermore, Moses Malone was now the most dominant center in the league, and he would go on to brutalize Kareem in the vast majority of their 40 h2H meetings.


Once again, Kareem was the best player in the league for the decade of the 70's, but IMHO, he lacked motivation, and he and his teams, even the LOADED one's, severely under-achieved. He couldn't win a title with teams that went 53-29 (best record in the league), 56-26, 59-23, 60-22, and even 63-19. And this in an era when team's with records of 52-30, 49-33, 48-34, and 44-38 were winning titles (and team's with records of 42-40 and 40-42 making the Finals.)

[Niquesports]

This should be a good debate.

Was Kareem even a franchise player before Magic? Since Wilt left the league was there a franchise player in that period before 80?

If you went by consistently winning and big time players in those winning years, you would have no real standouts but only a select few that made return trips to conference finals during that time:

Cowens for work in '74 thru '76 Two championships and conference finals. I think he's the only one who subscribes to the franchise player title.

Rick Barry for his work in '75 and '76. This is the most impressive because he didn't really have good teammates. Rookie Jamal Wilkes was his second best teammate when he won it all and averaged less than half the amount of points as Barry.

After that you can make soft claims for Gus Williams/Dennis Johnson (good for booting Kareem out a couple of years), Elvin Hayes and Dr J. Well I give Dr J a nod because of entertainment value, solid play and his team contending.

Kareem wasn't getting his teams deep in the playoffs despite there not being other good franchises around.

If he wasn't a franchise player in his prime and most productive years when it was a dearth of talent does it affect his GOAT rating? Of course you have to first argue that he wasn't a franchise player.

Kareem was never the out going personable type player. Then when he change his name with that personality the media never game him due. He was very out spoken . I can only imagine if Lebron changed his name to Ali Muhammd in today culture. They may kick him out the league.

No one not media or the players like Barry

Cowens was a Celtic you either loved them or hated them
Walton stayed hurt
In the 70's baseball was still big, football was growing ,boxing was still big.
There really was no room for basketball.
Magic the black kid with the smile and Bird the white kid from the country was a dream for the NBA. If anyone for one second dont believe that was a set up Magic going to LA and Bird going to Boston. I have some land I wanna sell you.
To answer your question I really agree with you. You couldn't put a bilboard out of Kareem and think people were gonna rush up to get in the game.If anyone says different they they either werent there or was on Mars at that time.

[ThunderStruk022]

I've manipulated facts in order to tell you why Kareem underachieved during his career while you can't ever accuse Wilt of doing the same.

This is what I got from all of that nonsense.

We get it. While Kareem and every other great center in NBA history underachieved, choked, etc. at different points of their career, the same can never be said of Wilt.

[jlauber]

This is what I got from all of that nonsense.

We get it. While Kareem and every other great center in NBA history underachieved, choked, etc. at different points of their career, the same can never be said of Wilt.

Go ahead and give us YOUR researched opinions then...

[Pointguard]

Thanks JLauber.

There were a couple of double edged swords with Kareem. He had the mantle as the best without question but he wasn't blue collar. He looked like he didn't want to play a lot. Back then with the economy struggling a bit, there no precedents of the best player in any sport looking disinterested and not hustling. The tradition of centers from Russell, Wilt, Thurmond, Cowens, Unseld was that you work and earn your position as number one. Kareem was a bit baffling in that regards. People hated Ali because he made number one look easy but people loved him too because he had off the charts charisma and success. So Kareem was getting the hate and no love. And the whole league didn't have a favorable face because of it.

Even today you let the face of your franchise, not hustle, not win and seemingly take for granted he's getting a check ('78) and I guarantee you are setting yourself up for failure.

[ThunderStruk022]

Go ahead and give us YOUR researched opinions then...

Why? YOU'LL just come back with another rambling blabbering post where you manipulate information AND/OR leave out important information, and tell EVERYONE why Wilt's teammates choked despite Wilt PLAYING a near perfect SERIES.

[DTreats]

He does bring up a good point..

Would you want a muslim to be your franchise player?

I don't think most fans would be too happy with that decision, how do you know one day said player won't wake up and decide to blow up the stadium? You know how radical those people can be.

All in all I think Alcindor would make a GREAT franchise player, as long as he doesn't change his name and all that bullshit.

[Pointguard]

Kareem was never the out going personable type player. Then when he change his name with that personality the media never game him due. He was very out spoken . I can only imagine if Lebron changed his name to Ali Muhammd in today culture. They may kick him out the league.

No one not media or the players like Barry

Cowens was a Celtic you either loved them or hated them
Walton stayed hurt
In the 70's baseball was still big, football was growing ,boxing was still big.
There really was no room for basketball.
Magic the black kid with the smile and Bird the white kid from the country was a dream for the NBA. If anyone for one second dont believe that was a set up Magic going to LA and Bird going to Boston. I have some land I wanna sell you.
To answer your question I really agree with you. You couldn't put a bilboard out of Kareem and think people were gonna rush up to get in the game.If anyone says different they they either werent there or was on Mars at that time.

Thanks Nique, for the thoughtful post. Kareem was loaded with political context and other perceptions which made the franchise label and league face a hard fit.

[Pointguard]

Why? YOU'LL just come back with another rambling blabbering post where you manipulate information AND/OR leave out important information, and tell EVERYONE why Wilt's teammates choked despite Wilt PLAYING a near perfect SERIES.

Yo, you came off earlier like you were a man or of some age. Some questions were put to you and now you are trying to go off on some tangent with a different poster on a different topic (we have to help the moderators here). Why don't you deal the hand you were dealt?

[Deuce Bigalow]

This should be a good debate.

Was Kareem even a franchise player before Magic? Since Wilt left the league was there a franchise player in that period before 80?

If you went by consistently winning and big time players in those winning years, you would have no real standouts but only a select few that made return trips to conference finals during that time:

Cowens for work in '74 thru '76 Two championships and conference finals. I think he's the only one who subscribes to the franchise player title.

Rick Barry for his work in '75 and '76. This is the most impressive because he didn't really have good teammates. Rookie Jamal Wilkes was his second best teammate when he won it all and averaged less than half the amount of points as Barry.

After that you can make soft claims for Gus Williams/Dennis Johnson (good for booting Kareem out a couple of years), Elvin Hayes and Dr J. Well I give Dr J a nod because of entertainment value, solid play and his team contending.

Kareem wasn't getting his teams deep in the playoffs despite there not being other good franchises around.

If he wasn't a franchise player in his prime and most productive years when it was a dearth of talent does it affect his GOAT rating? Of course you have to first argue that he wasn't a franchise player.

1971
Champion
Finals MVP
MVP
All-NBA First Team
All-Defensive Second Team
Scoring Champion

[jlauber]

1971
Champion
Finals MVP
MVP
All-NBA First Team
All-Defensive Second Team
Scoring Champion

His SECOND season, and IMHO, his GREATEST (if you include the playoffs.) And a 71-72 Kareem just blew away the league in the REGULAR season. He then had a MISERABLE post-season. From that point on, in the decade of the 70's, he and his team's under-achieved...plain-and-simple...in a WEAK era for champions (after WILT retired.)

And his domination of his peers declined, as well. Yes, when MOTIVATED he would put up 40-50+ point games, but they became less-and-less as the decade progressed. By the mid-to-late 70's, centers like McAdoo, Lanier, and Gilmore were on his level. And by the late 70's, Moses was dominating him and the entire NBA.