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  1. #721
    Another Laker Dynasty? bleedinpurpleTwo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    Quote Originally Posted by Indian guy
    What defense? Kobe wasn't playing much defense the 3 seasons prior to this one. None in fact in 04-05 and 06-07. LeBron's D this season is superior to any defense Kobe played between 04-07.
    flat out bullsh!t

  2. #722
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    Quote Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
    If I were to say that LeBron is a better jumpshooter than Dwyane Wade, Tony Parker, Arenas, or Jamison, I would be roundly criticized. You don't think so?

    Yet, he actually makes his jumpers more consistently than those guys. For the way people talk about LeBron's midrange game, I would expect his numbers to be down there with the worst jump shooting small forwards in the game... not better than some of the elite swingmen and point guards.

    I never said that any of those guys are great shooters... just that a lot of people would probably be surprised at LeBron's more consistent jumper in comparison, that's all.
    I agree with you, Bron is a better jump shooter than those guys. But it really doesn't mean that much, because those guys are bad jump shooters.
    Also, when you're talking about the best and most talented SF in the league, you expect a little more. Shooting a little better than Antwan Jamison is not gonna cut it.


    Those guys are excellent jump shooters. I didn't say LeBron's clutch jump shooting was 'excellent,' but damn good... a level below 'excellent.'

    If LeBron's jumpshot was as consistent as Rip Hamilton or Chris Paul or Dirk, it would be flat-out amazing and he would be, maybe the most unstoppable player ever.

    I think we all know that his jumpshot isn't on that level yet. Still... over 45% in the clutch is a good number for a guy whose main weapon is not the jumpshot.
    I agree with everything but your definition of "damn good"

  3. #723
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    Quote Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
    Now, he is a selfish player who doesn't know how to make his teammates better. It seems that the argument against LeBron changes as circumstances around the league change.

    Now that Kobe is on a good team, LeBron doesn't do enough to elevate his teammates' production. When Kobe was throwing up huge numbers, LeBron was a guy who was afraid to take on too much responsibility and criticized for relying on his teammates too much.

    Look, I'm not saying Bron does not make his teammates better. He obviously does. But to me Kobe just has been better in that regard so far this season.

  4. #724
    Old School Cool brandonislegend's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    why is this a post, its retarded, everyone arguing like kobe and lebron are their family members or something, get over it

  5. #725
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    Quote Originally Posted by brandonislegend
    why is this a post, its retarded, everyone arguing like kobe and lebron are their family members or something, get over it
    excuse me..it's a basketball forum... what do you expect?... should we maybe talk applied mathematics? this place is for discussing basket. games and it's players... lol

    what do you want to talk about? we can't talk about players? hmm and lets see under your criteria that would mean we can't talk about the teams... so that also leaves games out.. wow

    ok so here's what, you take one cup of cranberries, one cup of raisins and two cups of surgar... do you have a food proccessor?

  6. #726
    The Paterfamilias RedBlackAttack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    Quote Originally Posted by brandonislegend
    why is this a post, its retarded, everyone arguing like kobe and lebron are their family members or something, get over it
    Posters and posts like this one just make me laugh. They veil themselves as the 'rational minority' who see this never-ending discussion as meaningless. In truth, THEIR posts are far more trivial and pointless. It is the ultimate irony.

    This is a basketball forum. Kobe and LeBron are the two best basketball players in the world. We are having a discussion about them and the meaning the MVP trophy. How much more basic can you get?

    There are plenty of other topics to click on. You clicked on a thread that stated in the title that it involved Kobe, LeBron and the MVP. What, exactly, did you expect when you came in here? A 50 page discussion on Shaun Livingston's comeback?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brunch@Five
    Look, I'm not saying Bron does not make his teammates better. He obviously does. But to me Kobe just has been better in that regard so far this season.
    I disagree... I just think that Kobe has BETTER teammates this season. Certainly, that can't be denied and HAS to play a role, no?

    This current crop of Lakers is better than anything LeBron has ever had and is one of the best 'supporting casts' (hard to put Gasol in a 'supporting' role) in the NBA.

    LeBron is still waiting for his 'Robin.' Kobe already found his and it is a pretty damn good one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brunch@Five
    I agree with you, Bron is a better jump shooter than those guys. But it really doesn't mean that much, because those guys are bad jump shooters.
    Also, when you're talking about the best and most talented SF in the league, you expect a little more. Shooting a little better than Antwan Jamison is not gonna cut it.
    Here is the difference, though... for almost every guy that I listed, their jumpshot and midrange game is considered their strength. Arenas is an all-star who is considered a pretty damn good jumpshooter. The same goes for Jamison.

    LeBron's main weapon is not his jumpshot. For him to be shooting a better percentage on jumpers than all-stars whose main weapon is the jumpshot is pretty impressive. That was my point.

    It is a secondary weapon for LeBron.

    You can't tell me that Wade isn't considered to have a better jumpshot than LeBron. But, the statistics do not back it up.

  7. #727
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    I disagree... I just think that Kobe has BETTER teammates this season. Certainly, that can't be denied and HAS to play a role, no?
    but with the exception of fisher and then later pau, they are the same teammates as last year... and all of them to a man are playing better than last year..bynum and farmar i'll concede to knowing the system better, but still look at the others that are playing much better... did any of lebrons guys from last year exibit a step up in performance this year like kobe's have?

  8. #728
    The Paterfamilias RedBlackAttack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    Quote Originally Posted by gts
    but with the exception of fisher and then later pau, they are the same teammates as last year... and all of them to a man are playing better than last year..bynum and farmar i'll concede to knowing the system better, but still look at the others that are playing much better... did any of lebrons guys from last year exibit a step up in performance this year like kobe's have?
    Absolutely.

    Damon Jones is having a GREAT year for the Cavs. I think he should be in the starting lineup right now, to be honest. Devin Brown is playing excellent basketball. Big Z was playing great the first part of the season, but has been having injury problems.

    The main problem with the Cavs this year has been injuries, not a lack of production from LeBron's other pieces.

  9. #729
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    Quote Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
    I disagree... I just think that Kobe has BETTER teammates this season. Certainly, that can't be denied and HAS to play a role, no?
    sure, Kobe's teammates are way better than Bron's. But that difference is already reflected in team record (mainly), has little to do with who makes his teammates better by what degree.

    This current crop of Lakers is better than anything LeBron has ever had and is one of the best 'supporting casts' (hard to put Gasol in a 'supporting' role) in the NBA.

    LeBron is still waiting for his 'Robin.' Kobe already found his and it is a pretty damn good one.
    yep

    Here is the difference, though... for almost every guy that I listed, their jumpshot and midrange game is considered their strength. Arenas is an all-star who is considered a pretty damn good jumpshooter. The same goes for Jamison.

    LeBron's main weapon is not his jumpshot. For him to be shooting a better percentage on jumpers than all-stars whose main weapon is the jumpshot is pretty impressive. That was my point.

    It is a secondary weapon for LeBron.
    Tony Parker and Dwyane Wade have midrange game considered their strength? Are you kidding me? They are great at going to the basket, the jumper is their secondary weapon just as it is for Bron.
    Arenas is, as I said, a volume shooter who is prone to shooting bad percentages. Nothing to be proud of being in his company as a shooter. Antwan Jamison is more of a spot up shooter. I don't they compare.

    Shooting <40% is just plain bad. No way around it.

    You can't tell me that Wade isn't considered to have a better jumpshot than LeBron. But, the statistics do not back it up.
    Isn't Wade regularly laughed at because of his jumper?
    Last edited by Brunch@Five; 03-10-2008 at 06:13 PM.

  10. #730
    The Paterfamilias RedBlackAttack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    Quote Originally Posted by Brunch@Five
    Tony Parker and Dwyane Wade have midrange game considered their strength? Are you kidding me? They are great at going to the basket, the jumper is their secondary weapon just as it is for Bron.
    I was referring to Arenas and Jamison.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brunch@Five
    Arenas is, as I said, a volume shooter who is prone to shooting bad percentages. Nothing to be proud of being in his company as a shooter. Antwan Jamison is more of a spot up shooter. I don't they compare.
    But, both of their 'qualities' as NBA players are their abilities to hit jumpers. Would you agree? You aren't at least a little surprised that LeBron hits his jumpers at a higher rate than Arenas and Jamison?

    As big as a fan of the Cavs as I am, I was shocked to see that, quite frankly. I realize that Arenas is a volume shooter who tends to have bad percentages, but I was surprised to see that LeBron's jumper, as inconsistent as it is, falls at a more efficient rate than those two guys.

    I didn't do a ton of researching. I could have probably found other guys that are supposed to have better jumpers than LeBron shooting lower percentages.


    Quote Originally Posted by Brunch@Five
    Shooting <40% is just plain bad. No way around it.
    LeBron is >40%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brunch@Five
    Isn't Wade regularly laughed at because of his jumper?
    Not the way LeBron is. If you took a poll on this site as to who the majority of the site thinks shoots a higher percentage on jumpshots between LeBron and Wade, I can guarantee you that the vast majority of the site would choose Wade (and that goes for the vast majority of sports fans in the country, too).

    Wade has been made fun of because of his lack of range, but his midrange jumper is praised as being pretty good.

    ...I don't know... I'm not saying LeBron's jumper is 'great,' but I was surprised to see that he hits it with more regularity than some of these high profile all-stars.

  11. #731
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    Quote Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
    I was referring to Arenas and Jamison.


    But, both of their 'qualities' as NBA players are their abilities to hit jumpers. Would you agree? You aren't at least a little surprised that LeBron hits his jumpers at a higher rate than Arenas and Jamison?
    I am surprised, yeah. But still, all those guys aren't exactly known for being great shooters. Yes, Arenas and to a degree Jamison are known for scoring a lot of points off jumpers, but they are not considered great shooters.
    Also they probably have a bigger share of 3's than Bron which would take their % down, but I didn't look that up.

    As big as a fan of the Cavs as I am, I was shocked to see that, quite frankly. I realize that Arenas is a volume shooter who tends to have bad percentages, but I was surprised to see that LeBron's jumper, as inconsistent as it is, falls at a more efficient rate than those two guys.
    Again, nothing to be proud of shooting better than those guys. Being more efficient than incredibly inefficient does not make you efficient. Bron is still inefficient and yes, inconsistent.

    LeBron is >40%.
    I know. I didn't mean to imply Bron was a bad jump shooter, but that Parker, Wade etc are.

    Not the way LeBron is. If you took a poll on this site as to who the majority of the site thinks shoots a higher percentage on jumpshots between LeBron and Wade, I can guarantee you that the vast majority of the site would choose Wade (and that goes for the vast majority of sports fans in the country, too).

    Wade has been made fun of because of his lack of range, but his midrange is praised as being pretty good.
    I dunno, that's not the way I think it is. Either you read more and more closely than me, or you're reading another message board. Wade hasn't exactly been the talk of the season, so obviously his lack of a jumper won't be talked about much. But still ... i think we need to agree to disagree on that one.

    Parker has never been praised for his jumper though, that's for sure.
    Last edited by Brunch@Five; 03-10-2008 at 06:47 PM.

  12. #732
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    The MVP debate/discussion is over IMO. LeBron James deserves this award and it's not even close. He's been the best player (by far) this season and he's carried the entire Cleveland franchise on his back.

    It's LeBron and then everyone else (Paul, Bryant, Garnett, Howard, etc).

    LeBron = 2008 MVP

  13. #733
    Good High School Starter
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    If Kobe didn't get it two yrs ago lebronze sure doesn't.

  14. #734
    just read'n. john_d's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    isn't it about time we put tmac on the top of the MVP list.

    Tmac
    Kobe
    Lebron
    cp3

    in any order depending on ur homerism.

  15. #735
    I'm a neat monster. danumber88's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

    Alright this will probably clarrify things:

    Nba knows Kobe hasnt won an mvp title yet for his past seasons, they think its more deserving for him this year than Lebron. Because he just can't retire mvp-less. With his outstanding (81 points, 50+ in 3-4 straight games) He is playing good this year and has his team 1# in the West.

    Thats hwy they are going to give him this MVp award this year because nba knows Lebron is going to be monster in his 5th or 6th (i dunno) season. I dont think Kobe will outplay lebron in the next years.

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