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Old 09-12-2012, 02:48 PM   #16
Owl
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Default Re: Where do you rank David Robinson?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oolalaa
Below Patrick Ewing. I would take Cowens and Reed over him, as well, had their career's been longer. He's a borderline top 10 center, and someone you were never, ever going to win a title with if he was your best player. Far too soft.
Firstly the guys you have apparently got behind him won titles as the best player (at least most people consider that to be true), so if he so undeniably couldn't why wouldn't you put him much lower (e.g. you could have won titles with Neil Johnston as your best player, ditto with peak Wes Unseld, Nate Thurmond too with the right team etc etc)

Secondly the "you couldn't win with him as your best player" is one of the stupidest arguments I've ever heard around basketball generally, I don't know whether Bill Simmons started it (he uses it) or someone else but it has to stop. To show how false and nonsensical it is here's an example

Robinson is usually in the 15-30 range on GOAT type lists. But lets say he's 40. So lets pick some guys not usually in the top 40 to round out the starting 5. Dave DeBusschere, Billy Cunningham, Pete Maravich and Nate Archibald. That team couldn't win a title? Really? That sort of argument is completely bogus. What it means is the didn't win with the team that he had and usually the subtext is "I'm a ring counter, I count rings, rings are all, I judge individuals by the performance of a 12 man roster and their coaches".

And finally, you think it's literally impossible for David Robinson, whose second best player for most of his playoffs was Sean freaking Elliott, to win a title as the best player. Even in his most notorious "failure" of series, his team was one basket from a game 7 on their home floor. But there's a zero percent chance that team could have won and then bested an Orlando team that melted in the finals and got swept. That's inconceivable to you. A team can win Chauncey Billups as its best player, with with Gus Williams/Jack Sikma/Dennis Johnson as its best player, but not with David Robinson. Really?
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Old 09-12-2012, 03:21 PM   #17
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Default Re: Where do you rank David Robinson?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Owl
Firstly the guys you have apparently got behind him won titles as the best player (at least most people consider that to be true), so if he so undeniably couldn't why wouldn't you put him much lower (e.g. you could have won titles with Neil Johnston as your best player, ditto with peak Wes Unseld, Nate Thurmond too with the right team etc etc)

Secondly the "you couldn't win with him as your best player" is one of the stupidest arguments I've ever heard around basketball generally, I don't know whether Bill Simmons started it (he uses it) or someone else but it has to stop. To show how false and nonsensical it is here's an example

Robinson is usually in the 15-30 range on GOAT type lists. But lets say he's 40. So lets pick some guys not usually in the top 40 to round out the starting 5. Dave DeBusschere, Billy Cunningham, Pete Maravich and Nate Archibald. That team couldn't win a title? Really? That sort of argument is completely bogus. What it means is the didn't win with the team that he had and usually the subtext is "I'm a ring counter, I count rings, rings are all, I judge individuals by the performance of a 12 man roster and their coaches".

And finally, you think it's literally impossible for David Robinson, whose second best player for most of his playoffs was Sean freaking Elliott, to win a title as the best player. Even in his most notorious "failure" of series, his team was one basket from a game 7 on their home floor. But there's a zero percent chance that team could have won and then bested an Orlando team that melted in the finals and got swept. That's inconceivable to you. A team can win Chauncey Billups as its best player, with with Gus Williams/Jack Sikma/Dennis Johnson as its best player, but not with David Robinson. Really?
Thank you for that. You have saved me some words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swi7ch
NOT a top 5 center in my book, that's for sure. Hakeem just completely toyed with him in such an embarassing way that was unheard of if any professional league! And he was the MVP too that year!!! Just flat out dominated by Hakeem in every way imaginable.

All you ISH youngsters, check out that 1v1 matchup on YouTube.
I surely have no dispute with your opinion of Robinson not being a top five center. That's realistic and I respect that.

I also agree that Hakeem Olajuwon was dominant in his 1995 series against the Admiral. However, I believe the extent of his domination is often over-exaggerated. For instance, I find "toyed with him in such an embarassing way that was unheard of if any professional league" to be overstating things a bit. Such statements would seem to suggest Hakeem averaged 50 and 20 to Robinson's 5 and 5 in a four game sweep. That of course is not true.

To be clear, once more, Olajuwon had a historic series, but I think the YouTube clips have taken on a life of their own. I mean, Robinson did have games in that series where he dropped 20 and 16 with 5 blocks or 29, 9, 4, and 4 or 32 and 12 and it all occurred over six games (not four), so I disagree that the whole is as embarrassing as some seem to insinuate while citing YouTube highlights.

Last edited by Rake2204 : 09-12-2012 at 03:34 PM.
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Old 09-12-2012, 03:26 PM   #18
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Default Re: Where do you rank David Robinson?

Top 10 Center of all-time.

Top 20-25 range all-time.
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Old 09-12-2012, 03:27 PM   #19
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Default Re: Where do you rank David Robinson?

I have him at like the early 20s, 20-23 range, very underrated on ISH
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Old 09-12-2012, 03:50 PM   #20
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Default Re: Where do you rank David Robinson?

TOP 25, he is next best center after KAJ, Wilt, Russell, Hakeem, Shaq and Moses.
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Old 09-12-2012, 08:00 PM   #21
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Default Re: Where do you rank David Robinson?

One of the top 30 in league history and a top 10 center overall.
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Old 09-12-2012, 08:39 PM   #22
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Default Re: Where do you rank David Robinson?

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Old 09-12-2012, 08:44 PM   #23
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Default Re: Where do you rank David Robinson?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oolalaa
Below Patrick Ewing. I would take Cowens and Reed over him, as well, had their career's been longer. He's a borderline top 10 center, and someone you were never, ever going to win a title with if he was your best player. Far too soft.
Robinson is better Ewing for sure. Not by much but he's definitely better.
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Old 09-12-2012, 08:50 PM   #24
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Default Re: Where do you rank David Robinson?

Top 20-25.

Amazing at his peak.
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Old 09-12-2012, 08:56 PM   #25
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Default Re: Where do you rank David Robinson?

25 ish, give or take a few spots. He's slightly above Ewing. And yes, Hakeem wiped the floor with him in '95. Completely toyed with him. It was pathetic.
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Old 09-12-2012, 08:57 PM   #26
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Default Re: Where do you rank David Robinson?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rake2204
Thank you for that. You have saved me some words.

I surely have no dispute with your opinion of Robinson not being a top five center. That's realistic and I respect that.

I also agree that Hakeem Olajuwon was dominant in his 1995 series against the Admiral. However, I believe the extent of his domination is often over-exaggerated. For instance, I find "toyed with him in such an embarassing way that was unheard of if any professional league" to be overstating things a bit. Such statements would seem to suggest Hakeem averaged 50 and 20 to Robinson's 5 and 5 in a four game sweep. That of course is not true.

To be clear, once more, Olajuwon had a historic series, but I think the YouTube clips have taken on a life of their own. I mean, Robinson did have games in that series where he dropped 20 and 16 with 5 blocks or 29, 9, 4, and 4 or 32 and 12 and it all occurred over six games (not four), so I disagree that the whole is as embarrassing as some seem to insinuate while citing YouTube highlights.

The series was also 2-2 even heading back to San Antonio for Game 5. Some of the moves Olajuwon put on him in the first two games were some of the most ridiculous ever, and you don't see a lot of them on highlight videos.

Game 1:
Hakeem: 12/24 27 pts, 8 rbs, 6 ast, 5 blks
D-Rob: 5/17 21 pts, 9 rbs, 2 ast, 2 blks

Game 2
Hakeem: 18/31 41 pts, 16 rbs, 4 ast, 3 stl, 2 blks
D-Rob: 10/18 32 pts, 12 rbs, 2 ast, 1 blk

Game 3
Hakeem: 19/32 43 pts, 11 rbs, 4 ast, 5 blks
D-Rob 10/15 29 pts, 9 rbs, 4 ast, 4 stl, 1 blk

Game 4
Hakeem: 9/24 20 pts, 14 rbs, 5 ast, 3 blks
D-Rob: 6/16 20 pts, 16 rbs, 3 ast, 5 blks

Game 5
Hakeem: 19/30 42 pts, 9 rbs, 8 ast, 5 blks
D-Rob: 7/15 22 pts, 12 rbs, 3 blks

Game 6
Hakeem: 16/25 39 pts, 17 rbs, 3 ast, 2stl, 6 blks
D-Rob: 6/17 19 pts, 10 rbs, 5 ast, 4 stl, 1 blk


SERIES (HOU 4-2)

Hakeem: 35.3 pts (56%), 12.5 rbs, 5.0 ast, 1.3 stl, 4.2 blks
Robinson: 23.8 pts (44.9%), 11.3 rbs, 2.7 ast, 1.5 stl. 2.2 blks
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