Only Phil coached THREE top 10 players and every top 10 player has/is worth 3+ rings

[ScalsFan21]

if Phil is the reason they're top 10, then they aren't top 10

How high do you have Duncan in that case?

Duncan's on-court impact, longevity and accolades all match up well with being somewhere in that 6-10 range all-time, but you could debate all day whether he'd be fringe-DPOY level and such a team-oriented god to the extent that he was without Popovich's influence.

Who's to say he wouldn't be only top 15-20 like Garnett or Dirk had he not been paved a golden path to kick off his career with the Robinson injury (artificially superimposing a consensus #1 overall pick to an inorganically stacked situation which few top picks ever get to do), as well as having a great front office his entire career.

Where is the line drawn? Did Duncan not reach those impressive heights just because he had a lot of coaching/veteran influence helping him along the way?

[Quickening]

3 top ten players? MJ and Shaq definitely... However I personally have Pippen top 20, not sure about top ten for him bro.

[TheWinningFam]

Again - that makes no sense - if Phil is the reason they're top 10, then they aren't top 10

That alone proves you're wrong, unless you're saying MJ and Shaq aren't top 10... Is that what you're saying?

It isn't coincidence that the winningest coach happened to coach the best top talent of any coach ever

Jordan colluded with the white sox to avoid facing the clutch city rockets
This would be like if lebron retired to play Tight end for the browns after the warriors signed durant except what jordan did was even WORSE
he was in a middle of a contract with the bulls, meanwhile lebron is a free agent AND comming off a win agianst the GOAT regular season team.. this team was better than anything ordan faced in his career.

[iamgine]

Again - that makes no sense - if Phil is the reason they're top 10, then they aren't top 10

That alone proves you're wrong, unless you're saying MJ and Shaq aren't top 10... Is that what you're saying?

It isn't coincidence that the winningest coach happened to coach the best top talent of any coach ever

I think it makes no sense only for you.

They didn't win anything before Phil came.

[aj1987]

Quit being so defensive you little bitch, I don't have an idol so you bringing up LeBron doesn't affect me in the slightest.

Everybody and they momma knows Dwhistle took a a crapton of free throws. Get over it.

@ This LeBron turd call out another player on his FT's. Keep living that basement life, LeBron turd.

If science advances enough to get you a brain transplant, you might want to take a look at this post, if you want to have a legit argument.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...87&postcount=6

[FKAri]

So let's not overrate this guy

Who overrated him? Is Phil in the news? What prompted you to make a thread on Phil?

[NBAGOAT]

Who overrated him? Is Phil in the news? What prompted you to make a thread on Phil?

someone said Jordan was coached by Phil for all his rings while Lebron had Spoelstra and Lue. Surprised it hasn't been said more often before in response to 3ball.

[3ball]

Who's to say he wouldn't be only top 15-20 like Garnett or Dirk had he not been paved a golden path to kick off his career

Where is the line drawn? Did Duncan not reach those impressive heights just because he had a lot of coaching/veteran influence helping him along the way?

Let's see how well Popovich's system works without Duncan or another superstar to replace him.. And we already saw how Phil did without Shaq from 2005-2007 (lottery and 1st Round exit).

Regarding Dirk and Garnett - ultimately, Duncan would do better in the situations that Dirk and Garnett were in than Dirk and Garnett did, and those guys wouldn't do quite as good in Duncan's spot.. Heck, Dirk had great coaching in Carlisle, but he only has 1 ring.. Garnett got good coaching in Boston, but he proved to be less durable than Duncan.. That's why those guys aren't top 10 but Duncan is.

Ultimately, the PLAYERS execute the plays and win the games, not coaches.. Also, some players can fit into highly restrictive, complicated systems like Pop and Phil's, while some can't... Lebron had many coaches and they all coach him the same way, because his style doesn't lend itself to restrictive systems that restrict how long he can dribble, hold the ball, and where he can go on the court.

[SouBeachTalents]

3ball's right, Jordan won 6 titles with nothing but scrub teammates and incompetent coaching. Tbh the Bulls were arguably the worst run organization of the '90's, and only managed to win a pathetic 55 games without Jordan

[3ball]

3ball's right, Jordan won 6 titles with nothing but scrub teammates and incompetent coaching.

I wouldn't go that far, but he won with less than anyone else.

That's why he led a lottery team to a championship within 2 years, which no one has ever done.. That's also why he had the biggest scoring load ever while still leading his team in passing AND being the best defender ever at his position.

Guys like Popovich and Phil have coached great players for their entire careers, and the short time they didn't, their teams were bad - Popovich was 17-47 in 1997 before Duncan and Robinson came back in 1998 and won 56 games.. Pop's Spurs will NEVER reach the same heights without Duncan - 5-ring dynasties come around once in a lifetime for franchises..

Also, we saw how Phil did without Shaq from 2005-2007 (lottery and 1st Round exit) - he also lost in 2nd Round after having a 3-peat champion with MJ and was out of the playoffs before MJ came back and saved them in 1995.

[TheWinningFam]

I wouldn't go that far, but he won with less than anyone else.

That's why he led a lottery team to a championship within 2 years, which no one has ever done.. That's also why he had the biggest scoring load ever while still leading his team in passing AND being the best defender ever at his position.

Guys like Popovich and Phil have coached great players for their entire careers, and the short time they didn't, their teams were bad - Popovich was 17-47 in 1997 before Duncan and Robinson came back in 1998 and won 56 games.. Pop's Spurs will NEVER reach the same heights without Duncan.. Also, we saw how Phil did without Shaq from 2005-2007 (lottery and 1st Round exit) - he also lost in 2nd Round after having a 3-peat champion with MJ and was out of the playoffs before MJ came back and saved them in 1995.

Ultimately, the PLAYERS execute the plays and win the games, not coaches.. Also, some players can fit into highly restrictive, complicated systems like Pop and Phil's, while some can't... Lebron had many coaches and they all coach him the same way, because his style doesn't lend itself to restrictive systems that restrict how long he can dribble, hold the ball, and where he can go on the court.

Jordan needed pippen and the GOAT coach jackson to just get outside the first round.

Otoh, Lebron took 3 different coaches to the finals in Mike brown Lue and spolestra, 3 coaches who were basically rookies assigned with the task of forming a team around lebron...
This is also what makes lebron just all around better than jordan..

With lebron coaches mold their systems around HIM. all with lesser talent he won MORE.

With jordan he had to be plugged into a system with a GOAT level supporting cast and GOAT coach because without it he went 1-9 and couldn't get out of the first round..

[3ball]

Otoh, Lebron took 3 different coaches to the finals in Mike brown Lue and spolestra, 3 coaches who were basically rookies assigned with the task of forming a team around lebron...

Lebron team-hopping has accounted for all his rings - you'll never get past that.

MANY players could've gone 2/4 if they teamed up with arguably the best SG and PF in the league - even Lebron knows he underachieved, since he expected to go "not 5, not 6, not 7"

With lebron coaches mold their systems around HIM

Right - that's why Lebron had it easier - he didn't have to change his game or get his points within a system that restricted his movements - instead, everything was teed up for him.

With jordan he had to be [COLOR="Red"]plugged into a system[/COLOR] with a GOAT level supporting cast and GOAT coach because without it he went 1-9 and couldn't get out of the first round..

Complicated offensive systems are designed to help the ROLE PLAYERS and it requires superior skill for the star to achieve his normal stats while the system is restricting their full freedom.

Assist Percentage 1991-1993 Playoffs:

Jordan: [COLOR="Red"]31.1%[/COLOR]
Pippen: [COLOR="Red"]23.3%[/COLOR]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...yoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...yoffs_advanced

Assist Percentage 1996-1998 Playoffs:

Jordan: [COLOR="Red"]22.3%[/COLOR]
Pippen: [COLOR="Red"]22.0%[/COLOR]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...yoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...yoffs_advanced

jordan got plugged into a system [COLOR="Red"]with a GOAT level supporting cast [/COLOR]

If Jordan's supporting cast was GOAT, how come that cast required him to score more than any player in history AND lead the team in passing (as shown above) AND be the best defender ever at his position?

[Papaya Petee]

Without Phil
Jordan was 1-9
Kobe has 0 rings (does Kobe even have a playoff appearance without Phil??)
Shaq has 1 sidekick ring where he got carried

hmmmmm

[3ball]

Without Phil

Jordan was 1-9
Kobe has 0 rings (does Kobe even have a playoff appearance without Phil??)
Shaq has 1 sidekick ring where he got carried

Guys like Popovich and Phil have coached great players for their entire careers, and the short time they didn't, their teams were bad:

Popovich was 17-47 in 1997 before Duncan and Robinson came back in 1998 and won 56 games.. Pop's Spurs will NEVER reach the same heights without Duncan - 5-ring dynasties come around once in a lifetime for franchises..

Also, we saw how Phil did without Shaq from 2005-2007 (lottery and 1st Round exit) - he also lost in 2nd Round in 1994 after 3-peating with MJ, was out of the playoffs in 95' before MJ came back and saved them, and fell off a cliff to WOAT status when MJ left in 1998.

[TheWinningFam]

Lebron team-hopping has accounted for all his rings - you'll never get past that.

MANY players could've gone 2/4 if they teamed up with arguably the best SG and PF in the league - even Lebron knows he underachieved, since he expected to go "not 5, not 6, not 7"



Right - that's why Lebron had it easier - he didn't have to change his game or get his points within a system that restricted his movements - instead, everything was teed up for him.



Complicated offensive systems are designed to help the ROLE PLAYERS and it requires superior skill for the star to achieve his normal stats while the system is restricting their full freedom.




If Jordan's supporting cast was GOAT, how come that cast required him to score more than any player in history AND lead the team in passing (as shown above) AND be the best defender ever at his position?

1. Bosh was barely a top 5 pf in the league in 2010
2.Jordan's beta ass had to get plugged into a system to win, meanwhile lebron demanded a system be molded around him, and we he did he ALWAYS won..
4.Jordan assist and scoring percentages were due to the fact that he had a GOAT supporting cast, how can you not understand that?
He had GOAT role players in paxton and kerr to pass the ball out to
And the goat wingman in pippen to pass the ball to..
This allowed him to get more 1 on 1 situations due to teams not being able to double team him in fear of getting torched by his teammates, jordan is a top 5 scorer i'll give you that but lebron is the OVERALL BETTER player.

Jordan couldn't guard or block a center LEBRON COULD AND DID that in the



finals Jordan couldn't chasedown a top athlete in iguadala from the backcourt
Lebron could AND DID that..


Lebron is the superior defender and ALL around player