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  1. #211
    Facts Are Misleading
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    Default Re: Larry Fitzgerald is the best WR in the nfl.

    I can't speak for certain on other teams and wideouts, but I know for a fact that Peyton and Marvin have a lot of option routes (or had, looks like Marvin won't be coming back) in which when Marvin got to the line and seen the way the corner was playing him, he would run a specific route to counter it - and Peyton knew it. Obviously they have one of the unique bonds on the field between any quarterback/wideout but it's something that, with time, can be achieved. It's called chemistry.

    For example, if it's 3rd and 8 and Marvin is suppose to run a fly pattern and sees the corner play outside technique pre-snap, Marvin will run a inside slant for eight yards or whatever. This takes hours and hours of talking, practicing and being around someone to know exactly what they will do without communicating to them, but that's what made them special.

  2. #212
    -primetime-
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    Default Re: Larry Fitzgerald is the best WR in the nfl.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carbine
    I can't speak for certain on other teams and wideouts, but I know for a fact that Peyton and Marvin have a lot of option routes (or had, looks like Marvin won't be coming back) in which when Marvin got to the line and seen the way the corner was playing him, he would run a specific route to counter it - and Peyton knew it. Obviously they have one of the unique bonds on the field between any quarterback/wideout but it's something that, with time, can be achieved. It's called chemistry.

    For example, if it's 3rd and 8 and Marvin is suppose to run a fly pattern and sees the corner play outside technique pre-snap, Marvin will run a inside slant for eight yards or whatever. This takes hours and hours of talking, practicing and being around someone to know exactly what they will do without communicating to them, but that's what made them special.
    let me start by saying that I am not trying to argue with you here...clearly you are more familiar with the Colts than myself...

    however I have seen plenty of Colt's games...

    Would you not say it is fair to say that it is PEYTON that is reading the defense and calling the routes as he sees fit at the line rather than Harrison???

    You give the impression that the have a silent bond of options and they don't have to comunicate it before the play...WHICH IS 100% believeable if it is just 2 or 3 routes tops...but Peyton is CONSTANTLY yelling and pointing at the line...not Marvin


  3. #213
    Serious playground baller ndPac's Avatar
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    Default Re: Larry Fitzgerald is the best WR in the nfl.

    Quote Originally Posted by -primetime-
    I didn't see the WR change his route in that clip...

    "usually" as in ALLWAYS

    Peyton changes the play at the line ALL THE TIME...it is called an audible

    but I have NEVER seen or heard of a WR doing this

    They didn't show the wr making a change..because for one, the wr does not want to show what he is going to do to make it obvious to the defense....if you had watched that game live they said after the game that that wasn't the intended route the wr was suppose to run, but since he saw the blitz coming in and only 1 safety he ran the best route to beat the safety on that particular play, which happened to be a slant. . .The qb picked up on it within less than a second that it chose to do that.
    At that level they almost do that subconsciously if they notice something. Not to say it happens all the time, but it does happen. Just like the poster above said, its been known that Peyton and Harrison would do that because their chemistry was so good together.

    I really don't even know what you are arguing at this point..well i do see what you are arguing but I just don't know why lol...Oh well. Whatever

  4. #214
    -primetime-
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    Default Re: Larry Fitzgerald is the best WR in the nfl.

    Quote Originally Posted by ndPac
    They didn't show the wr making a change..because for one, the wr does not want to show what he is going to do to make it obvious to the defense....if you had watched that game live they said after the game that that wasn't the intended route the wr was suppose to run, but since he saw the blitz coming in and only 1 safety he ran the best route to beat the safety on that particular play, which happened to be a slant. . .The qb picked up on it within less than a second that it chose to do that.
    At that level they almost do that subconsciously if they notice something. Not to say it happens all the time, but it does happen. Just like the poster above said, its been known that Peyton and Harrison would do that because their chemistry was so good together.

    I really don't even know what you are arguing at this point..well i do see what you are arguing but [COLOR="Red"]I just don't know why[/COLOR] lol...Oh well. Whatever
    RBA was using Fitz's supposed route changing abilities as a reason why he is the best WR in the NFL...

    that is why...it is on topic with the thread.

  5. #215
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    Default Re: Larry Fitzgerald is the best WR in the nfl.

    Peyton is always yelling pre-snap, that doesn't mean he's changing the play. He does that at times just for the sake of doing it.

    Peyton calls out a lot of protections for his line, 75% of the time that's what his yelling is all about. All it takes for Marvin and Peyton is a simple look.

    Both are very smart, and Peyton is probably without question the best pre-snap quarterback in the league. If he sees Marvins guy playing outside technique on 3rd and eight it's going to be a slant. He doesn't need to broadcast that. You have to remember that when you're with someone for that long you talk about every situation possible about 1000 times. They know what each other is thinking.

  6. #216
    -primetime-
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    Default Re: Larry Fitzgerald is the best WR in the nfl.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carbine
    Peyton is always yelling pre-snap, that doesn't mean he's changing the play. He does that at times just for the sake of doing it.

    Peyton calls out a lot of protections for his line, 75% of the time that's what his yelling is all about. All it takes for Marvin and Peyton is a simple look.

    Both are very smart, and Peyton is probably without question the best pre-snap quarterback in the league. If he sees Marvins guy playing outside technique on 3rd and eight it's going to be a slant. He doesn't need to broadcast that. You have to remember that when you're with someone for that long you talk about every situation possible about 1000 times. [COLOR="Red"]They know what each other is thinking[/COLOR].
    I am not claiming you are wrong and that is very believable...at least with them...

    but how could you possibly know this?

    was this talked about on some sports special or something?


    *on a side note I find it hard to believe that Fitz and Warner have achieved this kind of chemistry, so many different defenses and teams...and having Boldin on the team would make that even more comlex...

    this also assumes that some plays (like the flea flicker to Fitz) are unchangeable routes no matter what...so I guess they have to find a way to call that in the huddle as well???

  7. #217
    -primetime-
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    Default Re: Larry Fitzgerald is the best WR in the nfl.

    alright RBA...

    I have bumped this to admitt that I was wrong...(EXTREMLY RARE FOR ME)

    I started this thread because of of our debate on a real NFL forum:

    mixed opinions...

    http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums...d.php?t=317080

    the names "Peyton" and "Harrison" came up alot...

    there were some that claimed that is "nerf football"....no WR plans out his own route...

    THEN THERE WAS THIS:

    Option routes are always a good idea to have in your arsenal of plays. They are easy to learn, the reads are easy to make, they are very effective against blitzing defenses, zones, and man to man secondaries.

    Diagramed is a simple to run, not so simple to defend, option route from a 4 Wide formation. These plays don't take much time to run but you always need a pass protection scheme and this one is pretty good considering the number of receivers actually running routes.

    The center will help away from (to the left) the play. This is because we want enough blockers on the left to pick up a blitz and we will read for blitz on the right with the primary receiver (in this case the T back). The T will sit down in the area that the LB vacated for a blitz. If the LB does not blitz but instead drops deeper the T will stay where he is until the QB pumps to him then he will run an out. If the LB does not blitz or drop the T will simply sit down then run the out and look for the ball very soon into the out.

    Here is what the QB is looking for.

    The outside LB (Rover) is he being pulled to the sideline by the slot's out route? If not throw the ball to the receiver running the out. This read must be made very quickly.
    If the LB blitzing or dropping back? If he is throw the ball to the T as he sits down in the vacated area.
    If the LB is staying put, pump to the T then reload and throw the out route prior to the LB recovering.
    Every now and then we will face a defense that makes a little sit and post move open. We will from time to time use this option as well. It is diagramed as a dashed line after the T sit down.

    [COLOR="Red"]We have experimented with letting the primary receiver run to any area he needs to to get open. We have had some success with his as well but I think it is always hard for football coaches to call these types of plays (less structured). We tag these plays as "get open" plays. It is a good idea to have a play like this for one of your receivers (usually your quickest). The receivers around him must know the complimentary routes to run in conjunction with the play. We would call something like that [/COLOR]

    Renegade C Get Open or wrist band it as (Ren C get open).
    read the red...

    http://www.bign2football.com/option_route.htm

    you were right to an extent...


    it happens...but to my credit it is VERY RARE...

    not only is it that rare but it is considered very risky and I am not convinced that Warner and Fitz have this kind of chemistry...


    anyway...
    Last edited by -primetime-; 01-22-2009 at 04:16 AM.

  8. #218
    The Paterfamilias RedBlackAttack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Larry Fitzgerald is the best WR in the nfl.

    Quote Originally Posted by -primetime-
    alright RBA...

    I have bumped this to admitt that I was wrong...(EXTREMLY RARE FOR ME)

    I started this thread because of of our debate on a real NFL forum:

    mixed opinions...

    http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums...d.php?t=317080

    the names "Peyton" and "Harrison" came up alot...

    there were some that claimed that is "nerf football"....no WR plans out his own route...

    THEN THERE WAS THIS:



    read the red...

    http://www.bign2football.com/option_route.htm

    you were right to an extent...


    it happens...but to my credit it is VERY RARE...

    not only is it that rare but it is considered very risky and I am not convinced that Warner and Fitz have this kind of chemistry...


    anyway...
    I'm glad you finally see the light.

    That said, I just wanted to clarify something, though. The part that you are saying is 'very rare' is the 'get open' route, which you highlighted in red. That is not what I was referring to.

    I was talking about option routes, which are discussed at the top of your article, and hot routes. Both of which have options for the receiver and they must be able to read a defensive scheme and choose the correct route.

    It isn't a 'get open' route where a receiver just decides "over there looks good." Option routes and hot routes are installed to every gameplan for just about every receiver (definitely the stars). To clarify, these are options that a receiver has based on coverage schemes. He doesn't have the authority to run to any part of the field that he wants. The coaches draw up specific options based on blitzes and coverages (usually 3 or 4 options). The receiver must read the defense and pick the route which would best attack the defensive look that he is seeing.

    The quarterback must also recognize these coverages and blitzes and both know and trust his receiver to read the defense correctly and choose the correct option route.

    The part in red discusses possibly allowing a receiver to immediately go to the open spot, without necessarily having a gameplan or set plays to change his route. That would be VERY rare and it sounds like it is still in its initial phases, to me.

    The option and hot routes, however, are anything but rare.

  9. #219
    -primetime-
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    Default Re: Larry Fitzgerald is the best WR in the nfl.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
    I'm glad you finally see the light.

    That said, I just wanted to clarify something, though. The part that you are saying is 'very rare' is the 'get open' route, which you highlighted in red. That is not what I was referring to.

    I was talking about option routes, which are discussed at the top of your article, and hot routes. Both of which have options for the receiver and they must be able to read a defensive scheme and choose the correct route.

    It isn't a 'get open' route where a receiver just decides "over there looks good." Option routes and hot routes are installed to every gameplan for just about every receiver (definitely the stars). To clarify, these are options that a receiver has based on coverage schemes. He doesn't have the authority to run to any part of the field that he wants. The coaches draw up specific options based on blitzes and coverages (usually 3 or 4 options). The receiver must read the defense and pick the route which would best attack the defensive look that he is seeing.

    The quarterback must also recognize these coverages and blitzes and both know and trust his receiver to read the defense correctly and choose the correct option route.

    The part in red discusses possibly allowing a receiver to immediately go to the open spot, without necessarily having a gameplan or set plays to change his route. That would be VERY rare and it sounds like it is still in its initial phases, to me.

    The option and hot routes, however, are anything but rare.
    ok...

    i think we had a misunderstanding from the get go...

    i understand option routes and blitz "hot routes"...

    HOWEVER....those are predetermined before the play...that wasn't what I was talking about...

    YOU...gave me the impression that what makes Fitz so great is his ability to get open after reading the defense at the line...

    I have NEVER heard of a WR creating his own route...and apparently it does happen...but it is not something that is common...



    you know what, Fitz really does seem like the perfect WR to just run out there and try to get open on his own...I will not rule it out...neither of us owns a copy of the Cards play book...What you are saying cold be very true...

    i admitt to being wrong here...but at the same time, this is something that is far from regular, and the fact that I rejected it as a possibility it nothing that anyone should look down on...

    I am betting that the majority of NFL teams do not have this option...

  10. #220
    Game. Set. Match. bdreason's Avatar
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    Default Re: Larry Fitzgerald is the best WR in the nfl.

    I'de take Fitz first right now. The kid is starting to perform like he did in College... only at the next level.

  11. #221
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    Default Re: Larry Fitzgerald is the best WR in the nfl.

    Quote Originally Posted by -primetime-
    ok...

    i think we had a misunderstanding from the get go...

    i understand option routes and blitz "hot routes"...

    HOWEVER....those are predetermined before the play...that wasn't what I was talking about...

    YOU...gave me the impression that what makes Fitz so great is his ability to get open after reading the defense at the line...

    I have NEVER heard of a WR creating his own route...and apparently it does happen...but it is not something that is common...
    Well... The option route is assigned in the huddle by the sidelines, but it is still the job of the receiver to, at the line, read the defense and choose the right option and the quarterback has to do the same and trust that the receiver will make the right decision.

    Hot routes are not necessarily predetermined in the huddle, either. If a specific play is called and the defense shows a strong side blitz by the strong linebacker and safety, the receiver in the slot or the tight end in whichever formation they are in become the hot receiver and must run a hot route.

    I just want to make sure we are on the same page... An option route is assigned in the huddle, but a receiver must still pick an option at the line after reading the defense. A hot route is determined by the defensive blitzing scheme and the only way to read the blitz is pre-snap, at the line-of-scrimmage.

    We good?

  12. #222
    -primetime-
    Fan in the Stands (unregistered)

    Default Re: Larry Fitzgerald is the best WR in the nfl.

    Quote Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
    Well... The option route is assigned in the huddle by the sidelines, but it is still the job of the receiver to, at the line, read the defense and choose the right option and the quarterback has to do the same and trust that the receiver will make the right decision.

    Hot routes are not necessarily predetermined in the huddle, either. If a specific play is called and the defense shows a strong side blitz by the strong linebacker and safety, the receiver in the slot or the tight end in whichever formation they are in become the hot receiver and must run a hot route.

    I just want to make sure we are on the same page... An option route is assigned in the huddle, but a receiver must still pick an option at the line after reading the defense. A hot route is determined by the defensive blitzing scheme and the only way to read the blitz is pre-snap, at the line-of-scrimmage.

    We good?
    yeah...I understand what you were talking about...

    Where I was coming from was the "option" or "hot route" was called at the line by the QB...OR predetermind before the play is called in the huddle...

    I'll be honest, I am kind of in George Bush "Shock and Awe" that in the NFL there are still plays were the WR just runs out there blind and tries to get open...

    that seems playground to me...if you know what I mean...

    oh well...you are one of the few here that I like to debate with...I LEARNED SOMETHING!!!!

    amazing to to me that you brought that to me...although I did have do look around and ask around...

    This isn't boxing to me...where you own...

    this is something I grew up on...football

    anyway...thanks for not being a childish scrub...

    when you post....I read...

    maybe that doesn't seem like much but it should....

  13. #223
    The Paterfamilias RedBlackAttack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Larry Fitzgerald is the best WR in the nfl.

    Quote Originally Posted by -primetime-
    yeah...I understand what you were talking about...

    Where I was coming from was the "option" or "hot route" was called at the line by the QB...OR predetermind before the play is called in the huddle...

    I'll be honest, I am kind of in George Bush "Shock and Awe" that in the NFL there are still plays were the WR just runs out there blind and tries to get open...

    that seems playground to me...if you know what I mean...

    oh well...you are one of the few here that I like to debate with...I LEARNED SOMETHING!!!!

    amazing to to me that you brought that to me...although I did have do look around and ask around...

    This isn't boxing to me...where you own...

    this is something I grew up on...football

    anyway...thanks for not being a childish scrub...

    when you post....I read...

    maybe that doesn't seem like much but it should....

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