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Old 01-03-2009, 11:01 AM   #31
RaininThrees
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Default Re: A Bargnani Glimpse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by antonaki1
Don't see how you think he's a PF, seems he's looked better than ever as the teams starting center the last two games. His battle with Yao last night was downright nasty, especially in the defensive end. Yet he still had the presence to rotate out and provide help on many occasions. Not saying to make him our starting center, we need J.O back, but to say he's a power forward in the making is wrong. He will get stronger, even more robust each year and though he is quick for a big man he doesn't have the finesse of a Chris Bosh type power forward. Now as a center, different story as he will create matchup problems there, will have the strength to battle, and be able to stretch the floor on occasion for uncontested 3's, cause no center is gonna want to come way out to that line to guard him. He just needs to forget the three point line and come off the bench demanding inside looks, if he does that he will continue to improve immensly. Trading him now would be a huge mistake for many years to come, cause if he doesn't do it here you can be sure he will do it with someone else and very well too.

He looked pretty good as the team starting 3 for a few games there too.

I do agree, however that he has looked comfortable as the starting C recently. I do think a consistent and clear role for Bargnani is key to his contributions to this team. He seems to be mentally fragile, and seems to succeed more when his role is clear and defined.

I'm not holding my breath that he puts this together for more than 3 or 4 games in a row, however. I hope he proves me wrong.
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Old 01-03-2009, 11:59 AM   #32
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Default Re: A Bargnani Glimpse.

I wish we would make Bargnani our starting centre. I also wish we could trade JO for a two and / or three. Bargnani has not had a defined roll in a very long time. He's been moved around so much, asked to do so many things that he forgets what roll he's supposed to play. Make him the starting centre, commit to it and see what he does. (Having said that I like JO, but if I could trade anybody it would be JO and that $20 mil that's hanging around our neck).

A lot of people don't like Bargnani because he has not come close to living up to a number 1 pick. It makes it easy to downplay his improvements. His man to man defense is excellent. He has a couple of post moves, learned from the two big man camps this past summer. He bulked up a little without loosing any of his ability to drive. On the flip side he' shooting touch leaves him too often, he makes his mind up before he gets the ball, looks completely lost sometimes. How much of that is attributable to not having a defined roll?

A big man takes time to develop. Once he gets a defined roll his confidence will increase, his shot will drop, and because he can play both inside and out the lanes open up for somebody to drive.

Q has made compelling arguments against the possibility of Bosh and Bargnani ever being able to play together, and Bargnani not ever being able to play centre. I respect Q's opinion. He makes very good arguments, so I can see how he's influence so many people who post here.

But Bargnani's got game. And to trade him now would be a very, very big mistake.
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Old 01-03-2009, 12:51 PM   #33
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Default Re: A Bargnani Glimpse.

we should probably wait and see bargs play a little more like he did in the past 2 games before changing our opinions so quickly. Jeez, its like the guy pulls 2 games and everyone starts jumping on his bandwagon again. This is not just about this forum, but on other sites as well. stupid kids.
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Old 01-03-2009, 01:00 PM   #34
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Default Re: A Bargnani Glimpse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by b4ball
I wish we would make Bargnani our starting centre. I also wish we could trade JO for a two and / or three. Bargnani has not had a defined roll in a very long time. He's been moved around so much, asked to do so many things that he forgets what roll he's supposed to play. Make him the starting centre, commit to it and see what he does. (Having said that I like JO, but if I could trade anybody it would be JO and that $20 mil that's hanging around our neck).

A lot of people don't like Bargnani because he has not come close to living up to a number 1 pick. It makes it easy to downplay his improvements. His man to man defense is excellent. He has a couple of post moves, learned from the two big man camps this past summer. He bulked up a little without loosing any of his ability to drive. On the flip side he' shooting touch leaves him too often, he makes his mind up before he gets the ball, looks completely lost sometimes. How much of that is attributable to not having a defined roll?

A big man takes time to develop. Once he gets a defined roll his confidence will increase, his shot will drop, and because he can play both inside and out the lanes open up for somebody to drive.

Q has made compelling arguments against the possibility of Bosh and Bargnani ever being able to play together, and Bargnani not ever being able to play centre. I respect Q's opinion. He makes very good arguments, so I can see how he's influence so many people who post here.

But Bargnani's got game. And to trade him now would be a very, very big mistake.

Your whole argument is skewed. Reason being that he will never have a defined roll on this team.

1 - JO is the Starting C regardless. If he gets traded it will be next year close to the deadline not this year. No one will be willing to take on that contract. So you can stop dreaming.

2 - He will never get to play the four with consistent minutes considering Bosh is the man on the team plain and simple.

3 - he's not good enough to play the 3.

He needs lots of mins at the four in order to develop and he won't get it here.

Therefore he will never develop properly on this team. If he goes somewhere and becomes a superstar that's ok b/c you can still get good trade value and help the team out which is what they should do in order to try and keep Bosh.
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Old 01-03-2009, 01:21 PM   #35
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Default Re: A Bargnani Glimpse.

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Originally Posted by bonez26
Your whole argument is skewed. Reason being that he will never have a defined roll on this team.

1 - JO is the Starting C regardless. If he gets traded it will be next year close to the deadline not this year. No one will be willing to take on that contract. So you can stop dreaming.

2 - He will never get to play the four with consistent minutes considering Bosh is the man on the team plain and simple.

3 - he's not good enough to play the 3.

He needs lots of mins at the four in order to develop and he won't get it here.

Therefore he will never develop properly on this team. If he goes somewhere and becomes a superstar that's ok b/c you can still get good trade value and help the team out which is what they should do in order to try and keep Bosh.

Are you sure it's my argument that's skewed, because my argument never said he should play the four. My argument never said he should play the three. If you want to argue with yourself, then go ahead, if you want to make a point toward my thread, bring a better game then that.

As for nobody wanting JO's contract, you should know enough that a contract that big going into the biggest free agency frenzy ever (2010), has a lot of value.
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Old 01-03-2009, 01:27 PM   #36
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Default Re: A Bargnani Glimpse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bada bing
we should probably wait and see bargs play a little more like he did in the past 2 games before changing our opinions so quickly. Jeez, its like the guy pulls 2 games and everyone starts jumping on his bandwagon again. This is not just about this forum, but on other sites as well. stupid kids.

I have always said that I like Bargnani, I have always said we should keep Bargnani. My opinion is not based on just the last two games it's on his entire NBA career. As is always said, big men develop slower. To have put up with his teething pains for this long and cut him loose now would be a huge mistake.

The stupid kid your refering to is likely yourself, because I have been clear about my take on Bargnani.
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Old 01-03-2009, 02:40 PM   #37
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Default Re: A Bargnani Glimpse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by b4ball
Are you sure it's my argument that's skewed, because my argument never said he should play the four. My argument never said he should play the three. If you want to argue with yourself, then go ahead, if you want to make a point toward my thread, bring a better game then that.

As for nobody wanting JO's contract, you should know enough that a contract that big going into the biggest free agency frenzy ever (2010), has a lot of value.
On the defensive side of the ball, most of the work done on Yao Ming was done by Jake Voskuhl. We've already seen Bargnani have some games with offensive explosions and the occasional nice play defensively, but it should be obvious that he cannot play the 5 consistently. He's out of position anywhere but the 4, and I for one would not be willing to hand over the reigns of this team to Bargnani if Bosh were to walk.
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Old 01-03-2009, 02:52 PM   #38
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Default Re: A Bargnani Glimpse.

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Originally Posted by bokes15
On the defensive side of the ball, most of the work done on Yao Ming was done by Jake Voskuhl. We've already seen Bargnani have some games with offensive explosions and the occasional nice play defensively, but it should be obvious that he cannot play the 5 consistently. He's out of position anywhere but the 4, and I for one would not be willing to hand over the reigns of this team to Bargnani if Bosh were to walk.

Voskuhl played 17 minutes, most in the fourth quarter to Yao's 28 and Bargnani's 32. I'm not saying Voskuhl didn't use his fouls well against Yao. But to say that Voskuhl was the defensive difference is just false.

Maybe what you saw was an illusion created by predetermined thoughts as opposed to actually seeing what took place during the game.
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Old 01-03-2009, 03:04 PM   #39
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Default Re: A Bargnani Glimpse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by b4ball
Voskuhl played 17 minutes, most in the fourth quarter to Yao's 28 and Bargnani's 32. I'm not saying Voskuhl didn't use his fouls well against Yao. But to say that Voskuhl was the defensive difference is just false.

Maybe what you saw was an illusion created by predetermined thoughts as opposed to actually seeing what took place during the game.
It doesn't matter how many minutes each played. Voskuhl set the tone by playing hard man to man D on Yao early and he took him out of any sort of offensive rhythm. If you had spent any time around here reading any of my previous posts, I said that the Voskuhl pick up was pointless/irrelevant so if ANY predetermined thought was there, it was that Voskuhl was useless and he proved me wrong. As for Andrea Bargnani, he's had games this season of 26/6/5, 29/10, 25/4/2, 18/5/3... Its not the first time we've seen him play like this, so you can stop getting overly excited. It happens. He'll never be good enough to play the 5 consistently, that's as close to a fact as it gets. If Andrea Bargnani started at C 82 games a year, i'd like to see him handle guarding players like Dwight Howard, Yao Ming, Shaq, Al Horford, Andrew Bynum, Sheed, Tim Duncan, etc. on a consistent basis. We'd get raped night in and night out.
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Old 01-03-2009, 03:07 PM   #40
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Default Re: A Bargnani Glimpse.

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Originally Posted by bokes15
It doesn't matter how many minutes each played. Voskuhl set the tone by playing hard man to man D on Yao early and he took him out of any sort of offensive rhythm. If you had spent any time around here reading any of my previous posts, I said that the Voskuhl pick up was pointless/irrelevant so if ANY predetermined thought was there, it was that Voskuhl was useless and he proved me wrong. As for Andrea Bargnani, he's had games this season of 26/6/5, 29/10, 25/4/2, 18/5/3... Its not the first time we've seen him play like this, so you can stop getting overly excited. It happens. He'll never be good enough to play the 5 consistently, that's as close to a fact as it gets. If Andrea Bargnani started at C 82 games a year, i'd like to see him handle guarding players like Dwight Howard, Yao Ming, Shaq, Al Horford, Andrew Bynum, Sheed, Tim Duncan, etc. on a consistent basis. We'd get raped night in and night out.

I don't think it matter what you see, because of those pre-concieved notions I mentioned. You saw Andrea play against Yao last night and didn't see a thing. Bargnani played very good defense against Yao, to bad you didn't see it.
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Old 01-03-2009, 03:10 PM   #41
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Default Re: A Bargnani Glimpse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by b4ball
I don't think it matter what you see, because of those pre-concieved notions I mentioned. You saw Andrea play against Yao last night and didn't see a thing. Bargnani played very good defense against Yao, to bad you didn't see it.
Bargnani has 3-4 good games (defensively) out of every 15-20 and all the Bargnani lovers wet their pants. Unbelievable. This argument is pointless.
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Old 01-03-2009, 03:27 PM   #42
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Default Re: A Bargnani Glimpse.

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Originally Posted by bokes15
Bargnani has 3-4 good games (defensively) out of every 15-20 and all the Bargnani lovers wet their pants. Unbelievable. This argument is pointless.

The only reason the argument is pointless is because you can't make one. Disagree with me, I'm OK with that, but if your distorting the facts, well I will correct you.

Bargnani has not had 15 to 20 games at one position yet this year. So you want to argue, or complain about loosing an argument because your, to be kind stretching the truth.

Don't resort to name calling. Disagree, but do it with logic and knowledge and facts.
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Old 01-03-2009, 04:59 PM   #43
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Default Re: A Bargnani Glimpse.

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Originally Posted by b4ball
The only reason the argument is pointless is because you can't make one. Disagree with me, I'm OK with that, but if your distorting the facts, well I will correct you.

Bargnani has not had 15 to 20 games at one position yet this year. So you want to argue, or complain about loosing an argument because your, to be kind stretching the truth.

Don't resort to name calling. Disagree, but do it with logic and knowledge and facts.

Entirely true, and no this isnt coming from another italian or bargnani lover, in fact i hated the pick for a while.

But you seriously cant say Bargnani's role has been easy so far, i mean he plays the three after working on his low post game all summer, then a coaching change, then a back-up centre position, then a starting centre position.

I dont know if you've ever played basketball bokes, but its pretty hard to change your position after every 10 or so games, especially with a coaching change.

So IMHO, i say give Bargnani the rest of the season before pre-judging that hes a bust. And dont say your not pre-judging because the "trade bustani" under your avatar says it all...
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Old 01-03-2009, 06:59 PM   #44
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Default Re: A Bargnani Glimpse.

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Originally Posted by hassano
Entirely true, and no this isnt coming from another italian or bargnani lover, in fact i hated the pick for a while.

But you seriously cant say Bargnani's role has been easy so far, i mean he plays the three after working on his low post game all summer, then a coaching change, then a back-up centre position, then a starting centre position.

I dont know if you've ever played basketball bokes, but its pretty hard to change your position after every 10 or so games, especially with a coaching change.

So IMHO, i say give Bargnani the rest of the season before pre-judging that hes a bust. And dont say your not pre-judging because the "trade bustani" under your avatar says it all...
If you're gonna quote me, do not add things that I didn't say.
A. I didn't say that his role has been easy so far. Hence the reason I said that he's a natural 4, a position he's not going to get to play consistently with Bosh around.
B. The reason his position has changed so much is because the coach doesn't know where he's most successful. They've experimeted with the Bosh/JO/Bargnani starting lineup with Bargnani at the 3, the 4, and the 5 at some point this season, and none have worked consistently. If you say that it's because he's not getting consistent minutes at one position, I agree that it's a part of the reason. And i'll repeat again for those who jump into arguments without reading the opposing side: Bargnani will not see consistent minutes at the 4 in Toronto... And as long as JO is around, he probably won't see consistent minutes at the 5 either. So instead of holding on to him like some hidden gem that we don't use enough/properly, why not get some value out of someone who fits on our team? You don't see Boston complaining about Al-Jefferson averaging 22/10 do you? and he had even more value than Bargnani based on his last season in Boston.

Last edited by bokes15 : 01-03-2009 at 07:06 PM.
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Old 01-03-2009, 11:32 PM   #45
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Default Re: A Bargnani Glimpse.

No you didn't say his role was easy but you said he's a bad defender, so i tried explaining why it isnt really easy guarding 3's then all of a sudden guarding 5's...

But i can see that you've already made your opinion on him and i wont be the one to change it..
so yeah i guess it is pointless
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