TOP 10 most talented-skilled players ever?

[Jacks3]

LMAO. Not even close. LeBron covers far more ground as a help/team defender than Bird ever did. There's no way in hell Bird could ever co-anchor a defense like Bron did with the 09,2010 Cavs or 2011 Heat.

I mean. Wow.

[pauk]

LMAO. Not even close. LeBron covers far more ground as a help/team defender than Bird ever did. There's no way in hell Bird could ever co-anchor a defense like Bron did with the 09,2010 Cavs or 2011 Heat.

I mean. Wow.

inb4 someone says im Jacks3 to

[millwad]

For anyone who says that Wilt Chamberlain was the most skilled center ever, the guy is one of the worst FT-shooters of all-time and he was a bad shooter outside the key (no, he didn't have a great jumper). And his postup game was raw and regarding his stats, stats doesn't tell anyone how much talent one player had, skillset does and Wilt clearly lacked in some parts of the game too much to be called the "most skilled center"..

The "most skilled center ever" ain't supposed to look like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oemQKScZ7MQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITxDdnzpnU8

[jlauber]

Not by far. Hakeem Olajuwon is very close with a respectable argument over him. That's a fact. Wilt can be argued as the most complete player of all time, which is definitely arguable. However, to ignore the likes of Hakeem who's got a respectable case for the most complete player ever is ridiculous.

The ONLY area in which Hakeem holds ANY kind of an edge over Wilt, would be in FT shooting. And even then, Wilt MADE 600 MORE FTs in his career, and in FOUR LESS seasons. Wilt's IMPACT at the line was significantly greater, as well.

Wilt LED the league in scoring SEVEN straight seasons, and those that followed the NBA at the time would claim he could have led it another 3-4 more seasons. And not only did Wilt lead the NBA in scoring, he had seasons in which he was BLEW AWAY the next guy (winning scoring titles by +10.8 and +18.8 ppg.) How about Hakeem? ZERO scoring titles. In fact, Hakeem never even SNIFFED a scoring title.

Rebounding? True, Hakeem barely won two rebounding crowns in his 18 seasons, but think about this. He was outrebounded by a TEAMMATE by over FOUR rpg in one season. How about Wilt? ELEVEN rebounding titles in his 14 seasons (and had he not been injured in the 69-70 season, it would have easily been TWELVE.) How about this? Wilt CRUSHED Bill Russell in the 142 H2H's by FIVE per GAME.

FG%? Hakeem was fortunate enough to play in the defenseless 80's, when EVERYONE was shooting 50%...and yet, his career FG% was .512. Here again, give me the number of seasons, in his EIGHTEEN season career, in which he won a FG% title. I'll save you the trouble...not ONE single time. In fact, he was usually nowhere close to the leaders...year-after-year. How about Wilt? NINE FG% titles, which included the TWO greatest seasons ever (and LIGHT YEARS ahead of his peers.) Chamberlain was routinely shooting 100 points over the league average, and had those two seasons in which he outshot the league average by margins of .244 and .271.

Passing? Hakeem was at a paltry 2.5 apg. His HIGH season was 3.6 apg. Wilt? He averaged 4.4 apg in his career, AND, he had NINE seasons in which he was ahead of Hakeem's BEST season. Of course, you won't find a center within MILES of Wilt's two BEST seasons of 8.6 apg and 7.8 apg.

We know that Hakeem won two rebounding titles. That was it. Now about this? Wilt LED the NBA in scoring AND rebounding, in the same season, FIVE times. Or that Wilt LED the NBA in scoring AND FG%, in the same season, FOUR times. Or that Wilt LED the NBA in rebounding AND FG%, in the same season, EIGHT times. Or that Wilt LED the NBA in rebounding, FG%, AND assists, in the same season, one time. Or that Wilt LED the NBA in scoring, rebounding, AND FG%, in the same season, THREE times.

In fact, Wilt had a season in which he LED the NBA in scoring, at 33.5 ppg, rebounding, at 24.6 rpg, and in FG%, at .540 (in a league that shot .433), AND, he averaged 5.2 apg, as well. ALL FOUR of those numbers BLOW AWAY Hakeem's BEST single seasons in ANY of those categories. And, of course, Wilt had FAR greater single seasons in EACH of those categories.

And before some idiot claims that Wilt had no competition...Wilt set some 130 All-Time records against the likes of Bellamy, Reed, Embry, Lovellette, Lanier, Cowens, Unseld, Hayes, McAdoo, Thurmond, Russell, and Kareem...ALL in the HOF.

[pauk]

For anyone who says that Wilt Chamberlain was the most skilled center ever, the guy is one of the worst FT-shooters of all-time and he was a bad shooter outside the key (no, he didn't have a great jumper). And his postup game was raw and regarding his stats, stats doesn't tell anyone how much talent one player had, skillset does and Wilt clearly lacked in some parts of the game too much to be called the "most skilled center"..

The "most skilled center ever" ain't supposed to look like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oemQKScZ7MQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITxDdnzpnU8

talent-skill-domination all in all..... cant deny him.. he was absolutely insane... i dont care what era it was... i dont even know if i could average those numbers even if i was playing alone lol.....

[RRR3]

How is Kobe not on your list? He, like MJ, can do just about anything. Post game, outside game, midrange game, playmaker/handles, high bball IQ and plays D.

How the EFF is Shaq on that list. If he was 50 pounds lighter and 3-4 inches shorter he wouldn't have been nearly as effective.

[PTB Fan]

LMAO. Not even close. LeBron covers far more ground as a help/team defender than Bird ever did. There's no way in hell Bird could ever co-anchor a defense like Bron did with the 09,2010 Cavs or 2011 Heat.

I mean. Wow.

Bird's help defense is very underrated here

[chazzy]

To me Lebron has more than affirmed to deserve that honor or at least hold water with Larry Bird in express of passing ability, The Catalyst & OldSchoolBBall. He has assuredly & gently been more of a variable & constructive passer than Larry Bird was and this comes from a old man who had time to contemplate most of their games live. I deliver this message with the full conscious awareness of probably being compared to Pauk yet again for not belittleling Lebron, so be it.

Funniest post. Pauk trying to use big vocab to hide the fact that it's him. Holy shit

[PTB Fan]

The ONLY area in which Hakeem holds ANY kind of an edge over Wilt, would be in FT shooting. And even then, Wilt MADE 600 MORE FTs in his career, and in FOUR LESS seasons. Wilt's IMPACT at the line was significantly greater, as well.

This doesn't make sense to me. Wilt wasn't better at the line than Hakeem it's very simple. Olajuwon was more reliable and could make over 70% of his attempts unlike Wilt who wasn't reliable.

Wilt LED the league in scoring SEVEN straight seasons, and those that followed the NBA at the time would claim he could have led it another 3-4 more seasons. And not only did Wilt lead the NBA in scoring, he had seasons in which he was BLEW AWAY the next guy (winning scoring titles by +10.8 and +18.8 ppg.) How about Hakeem? ZERO scoring titles. In fact, Hakeem never even SNIFFED a scoring title.

Wilt is the better scorer by a comfortable margin. However, Hakeem is one of the best scorers ever as well. He came up big in the playoffs and finals where he put arguably better numbers.

However, you're right. Wilt was a better scorer. Just wanted to point out something.

Rebounding? True, Hakeem barely won two rebounding crowns in his 18 seasons, but think about this. He was outrebounded by a TEAMMATE by over FOUR rpg in one season. How about Wilt? ELEVEN rebounding titles in his 14 seasons (and had he not been injured in the 69-70 season, it would have easily been TWELVE.) How about this? Wilt CRUSHED Bill Russell in the 142 H2H's by FIVE per GAME.

Once again, it's close. Hakeem was a very good rebounder himself, winning two rebound titles but also upping himself in the post season as well. The numbers he put would translate well in the 60's.

But Wilt once again has him though.

FG%? Hakeem was fortunate enough to play in the defenseless 80's, when EVERYONE was shooting 50%...and yet, his career FG% was .512. Here again, give me the number of seasons, in his EIGHTEEN season career, in which he won a FG% title. I'll save you the trouble...not ONE single time. In fact, he was usually nowhere close to the leaders...year-after-year. How about Wilt? NINE FG% titles, which included the TWO greatest seasons ever (and LIGHT YEARS ahead of his peers.) Chamberlain was routinely shooting 100 points over the league average, and had those two seasons in which he outshot the league average by margins of .244 and .271.

Wilt was more efficient by a nice margin. No debate here. My only problem with Wilt is that he never used his power game enough, since he relied too much on finesse play earlier in his career.

Passing? Hakeem was at a paltry 2.5 apg. His HIGH season was 3.6 apg. Wilt? He averaged 4.4 apg in his career, AND, he had NINE seasons in which he was ahead of Hakeem's BEST season. Of course, you won't find a center within MILES of Wilt's two BEST seasons of 8.6 apg and 7.8 apg.

This is where i disagree. No doubt Wilt could pass, but the year he led the league in assists it was because he pursued an individual feat which would later hurt his team.

So, i'll roll instead with Hakeem.

We know that Hakeem won two rebounding titles. That was it. Now about this? Wilt LED the NBA in scoring AND rebounding, in the same season, FIVE times. Or that Wilt LED the NBA in scoring AND FG%, in the same season, FOUR times. Or that Wilt LED the NBA in rebounding AND FG%, in the same season, EIGHT times. Or that Wilt LED the NBA in rebounding, FG%, AND assists, in the same season, one time. Or that Wilt LED the NBA in scoring, rebounding, AND FG%, in the same season, THREE times.

In fact, Wilt had a season in which he LED the NBA in scoring, at 33.5 ppg, rebounding, at 24.6 rpg, and in FG%, at .540 (in a league that shot .433), AND, he averaged 5.2 apg, as well. ALL FOUR of those numbers BLOW AWAY Hakeem's BEST single seasons in ANY of those categories. And, of course, Wilt had FAR greater single seasons in EACH of those categories.

While few at all could win many titles in multiple categories, i'm not arguing Hakeem based on numbers but rather arguably better defense, bigger versatility, better post up game, clutch and being more reliable at the line.

And before some idiot claims that Wilt had no competition...Wilt set some 130 All-Time records against the likes of Bellamy, Reed, Embry, Lovellette, Lanier, Cowens, Unseld, Hayes, McAdoo, Thurmond, Russell, and Kareem...ALL in the HOF.

Wilt's competition was slightly better than Hakeem's.

[pegasus]

Your mom called. She wants her crack back.

[RRR3]

[trooper]

take a look at his productions on that end... and take a look at his highlights for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooEELfpn2C8&NR=1

Not going to get into the Bird vs. LeBron passing debate but that video sucks. Most of those passes are there because they just look fancy, not because of LeBron's 'omg legendary laser point vision'. I barely saw any passes showing LeBron with that great court vision, most were just passing out a double team, or passing after breaking the defense down ... woop tee doo.. (admittedly I only watched the first 2 minutes because it was that boring)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhnRtgBGMl4 , much better video

[Tha Catalyst]

Not going to get into the Bird vs. LeBron passing debate but that video sucks. Most of those passes are there because they just look fancy, not because of LeBron's 'omg legendary laser point vision'. I barely saw any passes showing LeBron with that great court vision, most were just passing out a double team, or passing after breaking the defense down ... woop tee doo.. (admittedly I only watched the first 2 minutes because it was that boring)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhnRtgBGMl4 , much better video

Thank you, Lebron's passing highlights were mostly from using his insane athleticism (not a skill necessarily) to break down a defense and find what was generally an open man. He sometimes added a bit of flair to the pass but i wasn't amazed. Some of Bird's passes must be seen to be believed, and it generally wasn't to a wide open player. You mentioned assist number to back up Lebron Pauk, while knowing full well Lebron handles the ball more than Bird and tends to pass late in the shot clock. Then you refute that Rondo and others are not better passers than Lebron and are only viewed so because of assist number. You are very contradictory in your arguments. I don't hate Lebron, he deserved both MVP's and is at worst a top 2-3 player in the league, but he has no place in a top 10 all-time skills thread. If he did have top 10 skills with that body and athleticism, he would be better than Jordan. I think even you at this point have accepted he isn't in MJ's league.

[jlauber]

This doesn't make sense to me. Wilt wasn't better at the line than Hakeem it's very simple. Olajuwon was more reliable and could make over 70% of his attempts unlike Wilt who wasn't reliable.

First of all, before I begin, you have been one of the few quality posters on this board, and I do respect your opinions.

Regarding FT shooting...

I have covered this before, but for those that may not have read my take, ...to be sure, Wilt was a poor FT shooter. BUT, having said that, his IMPACT at the line was far greater than even an average FT shooter. And Wilt currently ranks 14th, all-time, in FTs MADE. He MADE 600 MORE FTs than Hakeem...and in four seasons less. Thinks about this...Wilt MADE 2000 MORE FTs than Bird. And while Kareem ranks ahead of him in career FTs made, Chamberlain averaged 432 MADE per season in his 14 year career, while Kareem was at 335 per season in his 20 year career.

And Wilt and Shaq were the two greatest "and-one" scorers in NBA history. Many of their FTAs were real bonus shots. Not only that, but they piled up fouls on not only opposing centers, but opposing TEAMs. Opposing players were either replaced, or forced to play "matador" defenses.

Then there were the EXTRA FTAs that Wilt gave his teammates by getting them into the bonus much earlier. Chamberlain's TEAMs either led the league in FTAs, or were among the leaders, every season. His '67 Sixer team was MILES ahead of the rest of the league. You want a truly great example? Wilt's 68-69 Lakers LED the NBA in FTAs. Then, he was injured early on in the 69-70 season, and missed 70 games. LA plummetted to 11th, out of 14 teams, in FTAs that season. HOWEVER, Wilt returned for the playoffs...and the Lakers attempted 200 more FTAs than the next best team in the post-season!

Wilt is the better scorer by a comfortable margin. However, Hakeem is one of the best scorers ever as well. He came up big in the playoffs and finals where he put arguably better numbers.

However, you're right. Wilt was a better scorer. Just wanted to point out something.

While Hakeem did raise his game in the post-season, it is a common MYTH that Wilt "declined" in his.

I am going to save myself some time here...

So, let's conveniently overlook these facts. That a PRIME "scoring" Wilt averaged 32 ppg, 27 rpg, and shot .510 (in league's that averaged about .430 shooting) in his first six post-seasons (his first seven seasons) ...COMBINED! Or that in his first eight straight post-seasons (covering his first nine seasons), all he did was average 29.3 ppg, 26.6 rpg, 4.8 apg (yes, 4.8 apg) and on .518 shooting (in league's that averaged about .435 shooting)...COMBINED!

I tell you what...you find me ONE player, who EVER had even ONE post-season of 29.3 ppg, 26.6 rpg, 4.8 apg, and on .518 shooting. And yet, here was Wilt, who supposedly "declined" in his post-seasons, who AVERAGED that over the course of EIGHT straight post-seasons...COMBINED!

How about Wilt with entire post-seasons of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg (on .543 shooting), 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg? Or how about Wilt with post-season series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, and a staggering seven game series of 38.6 ppg, on .559 shooting, and with 23.0 rpg.Or how about Wilt with FOUR post-season series, just against Russell, of 30+ ppg...including a seven game series in the '65 ECF's in which he averaged 30 ppg AND 31 rpg? Or how about Wilt with FOUR post-season games of 50+ points (which is second to MJ's eight...all-time...in the post-season?) And one of them was a 56-35 game five in a best-of-series, and the other was a 50-35 game (on 22-42 shooting) against Russell in a "must-win" game five of the '60 ECF's.

Oh, and BTW, Wilt had FOUR 40-30 games, just against Russell, in his post-season career, including a 46-34 game in a "must-win" game five in the '66 ECF's. AND, in the '70 Finals, and on ONE leg, and in a "must-win" game, he hung a 45 point, on 20-27 shooting, 27 rebound game.

How about Wilt with TWO complete playoff series in which he AVERAGED a TRIPLE-DOUBLE? And in that post-season, all he did was average 21.7 ppg, 29.1 rpg, 9.2 apg, and on .579 shooting.

Defense? Of course the "anti-Wilt" clan with bring up Wilt's "decline" in the post-season...but how about these facts? In the '62 Finals, Russell shot 50% against the Lakers. However, in the '62 ECF's, and against Wilt, he was at about .420 shooting. In the '64 Finals, Wilt averaged 29 ppg, 27 rpg, and shot .517 against Russell. Meanwhile, Russell averaged 11 ppg and 25 rpg against Wilt. And while we don't have Russell's H2H FG% against Wilt, we do know that Russell shot .356 in his entire post-season...and half of those ten game came against Wilt.

In the '65 Finals, Russell hung an 18 ppg .702 FG% on the Lakers. However, in the previous round against Wilt...15 ppg on .451 shooting (while Wilt averaged a 30-31 series against Russell.) In the '66 Finals, Russell LED Boston in scoring with a 23.6 ppg average against the Lakers. BUT, against Wilt in the ECF's that season? 14 ppg (while Wilt hung a 28 ppg, 30 rpg, .509 series on Russell.)

In the '67 ECF's, Wilt outscored Russell, per game, 21.6 ppg to 10.2 ppg; outrebounded Russell, per game, 32.0 rpg to 23.0 rpg; outassisted Russell, per game, 10 apg to 6 apg; and outshot Russell in that series, .556 to .358 (and Russell had shot .454 during the regular season.) Then, in the Finals, and against Thurmond, Wilt outscored Nate, per game, 17.5 ppg to 14.3 ppg; outrebounded Nate, per game, 28.5 rpg to 26.7 rpg; and outshot Nate by a mind-boggling, .560 to .343 margin. BTW, Wilt squared of against Thurmond in three playoff series, and he outrebounded Nate in all three, as well as outshot Nate in all three by margins of .500 to .398, .550 to .392, and .560 to .343.

In the '68 regular season, Walt Bellamy shot .541. Against Wilt in the playoffs? How about .421???

In the '71 regular season, Kareem averaged 31.7 ppg on .577 shooting. Against a 34 year-old Wilt, who was a year removed from major surgery? 25 ppg on .481 shooting!

In the '72 regular season, Kareem averaged 34.8 ppg on .574 shooting. In the WCF's, Wilt held Kareem to 33 ppg on .457 shooting, which included holding him to .414 over the course of the last four pivotal games of that series. And, BTW, Wilt also blocked some 15+ "unblockable" sky-hooks in that series.

Continued...

[jlauber]

Continuing...

Once again, it's close. Hakeem was a very good rebounder himself, winning two rebound titles but also upping himself in the post season as well. The numbers he put would translate well in the 60's.

But Wilt once again has him though.

This is not even close. Wilt not only holds almost every single rebounding record, he absolutely CRUSHED his peers H2H. And, he ELEVATED his rebounding in the post-season. Russell holds the post-season career rpg mark of 24.9 rpg (to Wilt's 24.5 rpg), BUT, Wilt outrebounded Russell in EVERY one of their EIGHT post-season series. Not only that, but when Russell retired after the '69 season, Wilt was at a career 26.3 rpg mark.

Wilt was NEVER outrebounded in ANY of his 29 playoff series. Included in those 29 series were eight against Russell, and in some of those, he just crushed Russell. He also outrebounded the likes of Reed, Bellamy, Lucas, Thurmond, and Kareem...in EVERY H2H series...some by massive margins.

Wilt was more efficient by a nice margin. No debate here. My only problem with Wilt is that he never used his power game enough, since he relied too much on finesse play earlier in his career.

I'll reluctantly agree with you on this point. Still, given the fact that the NBA enacted SEVERAL "anti-Wilt" rules, I highly doubt that they would have allowed Wilt to physically overwhelm his peers.

This is where i disagree. No doubt Wilt could pass, but the year he led the league in assists it was because he pursued an individual feat which would later hurt his team.
So, i'll roll instead with Hakeem.

Another fallacy. The year Wilt led the NBA in assists, his Sixers RAN AWAY with the best record in the league (62-20.) The real reason they did not win in the post-season? They were DECIMATED by injuries. HOFer Billy Cunningham didn't even play in the Celtic series, and Philly STILL had a 3-1 series lead. THEN, Luke Jackson and Wali Jones BOTH suffered leg injuries in game five. On top of all of that...WILT, himself was nursing an assortment of leg and foot injuries...and was NOTICEABLY LIMPING from game three thru game seven. With all of that, the Sixers lost a game seven by four points.

BTW, Wilt finished THIRD in assists in the previous season, and in the process, he led his team to an overwhelming title.

Hakeem isn't even in the same galaxy in passing. Once again, Wilt had NINE seasons better than Hakeem's BEST season. And, even in the post-season, Chamberlain had entire post-seasons of 9.2 apg and 6.5 apg. There has never been ANY center who approached Wilt's best seasons.

While few at all could win many titles in multiple categories, i'm not arguing Hakeem based on numbers but rather arguably better defense, bigger versatility, better post up game, clutch and being more reliable at the line.

Wilt was a MUCH better defensive player than Hakeem. Check this out:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ws_season.html

The fact was, Wilt was probably the second greatest defensive center (and player) in NBA history. Even in his LAST TWO seasons, at ages 35 and 36, he was voted first-team all-defense...over the likes of Cowens, Reed, Lanier, Hayes, Thurmond, and Kareem.

And read my copied area above...Wilt ROUTINELY held his opposing centers to 100+ points under their regular season FG%'s.

And most research tends to credit Wilt with being the greatest shot-blocker of all-time. Psileas posted an interesting article a while back which claimed that Wilt averaged better than 7 bpg in his '71-72 season, (and over 7 bpg in that post-season), and around 6 bpg in his LAST season. Then, think about this... the NBA began officially tracking blocks the very bext season after Wilt retired. Kareem averaged 3.5 bpg in that 73-74 season, and Thurmond averaged 2.9 bpg. And stats maven Harvey Pollack claimed that a PRIME Wilt had SEASONS of 10 bpg. Wilt even RECORDED 23 blocks in one game in a nationally televised game in 1968. So I don't see how the NBA can recognize Elmore Smith's mark of 17 as the REAL record.

Wilt's competition was slightly better than Hakeem's.

I already gave you a list of the centers that Wilt faced, but how about this...

In Wilt's 160 post-season games, he faced a starting HOF center in 99 of them. In Hakeem's 145 post-season games, he faced a starting HOF center in 32 of them.

Hakeem faced Shaq in eight post-season games; Ewing in seven; Robinson in six; Parish in six; and an OLD Kareem in five.

Wilt faced Russell in 49 playoff games; Thurmond in 17; Reed in 11; a PRIME Kareem in 11; Bellamy in six; and Lucas in five.

I just don't see any real area where Hakeem has much of a case over Wilt.