Why Wilt Chamberlain's scoring stats shrinked that much in the playoffs?

[LAZERUSS]

And the whole "within an eyelash of X more rings" is a bogus argument. Virtually all pantheon players were within an eyelash of many more rings and suffered several close losses in the playoffs. Just off the top of my mind:

MJ in '89 and '90
Kareem in '72, '74, and '84
Shaq in '05
Duncan in '04, '06, and '13

etc.

Players have to be judged by what they achieved not what they COULD HAVE achieved in some hypothetical situation. Bottom line is Wilt also RARELY made plays to help his team win those close games ('65 Game 7 being the sole exception...).

Another unresearched post. Of course, coming from a Kareem fan, I would have expected it, since he was arguably the biggest underachiever among the GOAT candidates, of all-time.

Let's start with Wilt. His team's lost to the eventual champion, TEN times in his post-season career. FIVE in game SEVEN's, and in FOUR of those game seven's, by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points, and in series', and key games in which his fellow teammates PUKED all over the floor. NINE points away from being the champion, FOUR times.

Now, how about your "close calls"...

MJ in '89. His team lost a game SIX by nine points, to the eventual champion Pistons. NOT close.

MJ in '90. His team lost a game seven, by 19 points to the eventual champion. NOT close.


KAJ in '72. Lost a game SIX on his home floor, to the eventual champion Lakers (led by Chamberlain's dominance in that game BTW.) NOT close.

KAJ in '74. True, lost a game seven, to the under-dog Celtics, on his home floor, in a game in which Cowens outplayed him in every facet of the game, and by...15 points. NOT close.

KAJ in '84. Lost a game seven, to a Celtic team that they should have SWEPT, in a series in which Kareem shot .481 from the floor, by NINE points. NOT close.


Shaq in '05. Lost a game seven, to the Pistons, by six points. Of course, Detroit was BEATEN by San Antonio in seven games. NOT close.

Only Duncan would have anything close to a case. Still, looking at the final margins in his last game of those series,


Duncan in '04. Lost a game SIX, by 12 points, to a Laker team that was ROUTED by the Pistons in the Finals. Not even remotely close.

Duncan in '06. Lost a game seven, by eight points (yes, in OT though), to the eventual champion Mavs. I could give you this one, but then you would have to give Wilt at least '70, when his team was jobbed by the officiating in game five (as reported by a NEW YORK TIMES writer Leonard Koppett.)

Duncan in '13. Should have won in six. Lost a game seven by seven points.


Still, NONE of them were decided by four points, or less, were they. As for KAJ, he was losing to lower seeds, year-after-year, in the 70's, and being outplayed in several series (even some wins.)

As for Wilt's TEAMMATES in those game seven losses...

In '62, (two point loss), I don't have the numbers, BUT, his teammates collectively shot .354 in the entire post-season that year. That he could single-handedly carry a pathetic and aging team as far as he did was just incredible.

In '65 (one point loss), again, I don't have his teammates numbers, but statistically they were badly outscored in that series. Meanwhile, Chamberlain took what had been a roster that had gone 34-46 the year before, without him, to that game seven, one point loss, against a HOF-laden Celtic team that had gone 62-18, with a 30-32 performance, on 80% shooting from the floor, in a series in which was probably the most one-sided beatdown ever administered by one GOAT on another GOAT candidate.

In '68. (four point loss). His injury-riddled teammates shot 33% from the field (and he was playing injured, with injuries that would have had Reed and KAJ watching from home.)

In '69 (two point loss), while Wilt completely outplayed Russell in that game, hios incompetent coach benched Chamberlain in the last five minutes. Oh, and Russell's teammates collectively outshot Wilt's from the field by...get this... a .477 to .360 margin in that game seven.


Chamberlain was a total of NINE points away from FOUR rings. No other all-time great can make that claim. In the examples you gave, they were seldom nine points away in even ONE game.

[LAZERUSS]

1960:
vs Nationals-- RS: 38, PO: 38.7 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 39.9, PO: 30.5 (adv. RS)

1961:
vs Nationals-- RS: 39.9, PO: 37 (adv. RS)

1962:
vs Nationals-- RS: 48, PO: 37 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 41.7 (incl. games that Russell missed), PO: 33.6 (adv. RS)

1964:
vs Hawks-- RS: 32.8, PO: 38.6 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 29.1, PO: 29.2 (adv. PO)

1965 (playing for Sixers):
vs Royals-- RS: 36.8, PO: 27.8 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 25.0, PO: 30.1 (adv. PO)

1966:
vs Celtics-- RS: 28.3, PO: 28 (adv. RS)

1967:
vs Royals-- RS: 28.6, PO: 28 (adv. RS)
vs Celtics-- RS: 20.3, PO: 21.6 (adv. PO)
vs Warriors-- RS: 20.7, PO: 17.7 (adv. RS)

1968:
vs Knicks-- RS: 22.6, PO: 25.5 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 17.1, PO: 22.1 (adv. PO)

1969:
vs Warriors-- RS: 12.6, PO: 12.0 (adv. RS)
vs Hawks-- RS: 17.9, PO: 19.2 (adv. PO)
vs Celtics-- RS: 16.3, PO: 11.7 (adv. RS)

1970:
Too small RS samples

1971:
vs Bulls-- RS: 21.2, PO: 15.7 (adv. RS)
vs Bucks-- RS: 23.2, PO: 22 (adv. RS)

1972:
vs Bulls-- RS: 8.8, PO: 14.5 (adv. PO)
vs Bucks-- RS: 13.0, PO: 10.8 (adv. RS)
vs Knicks-- RS: 16.8, PO: 19.4 (adv. PO)

1973:
vs Bulls-- RS: 11.5, PO: 12 (adv. PO)
vs Warriors-- RS: 5.7, PO: 7 (adv. PO)
vs Knicks-- RS: 9.3, PO: 11.6 (adv. PO)

RS vs PO: 13-13

Falls by 5+ ppg: 5
Raises by 5+ ppg: 4

Seems pretty even to me. Choker? I don't think so.

The Wilt DOUBLE-STANDARD. In his scoring prime, Wilt averaged 33 ppg, 27 rpg, shot WAY over the league in FG% and TS% (.505 in league's that shot an eFG% of about .425 in that span), handed out 4 apg, and probably blocked 8+ shots per game, ...all while holding his opposing centers to probably a sub 40% FG%. In 52 playoff games, with 30 of them against Russell.

Even into his greatest season, 66-67, and covering 67 playoff games, he AVERAGED 30 ppg, 27 rpg, 5 apg, shot .515 (in leagues that were at .427 in that span), with probably eight blocks per game, all while holding his mostly HOF counterparts to probably considerably less than 40% shooting from the field.

Maybe the Wilt-bashers can give us an example of another all-time GOAT player who put up a 30-27-5 .515 8 SERIES, much less over the course of 67 games. Hell, they would be hard-pressed to give us an example of a SINGLE GAME in which an all-time GOAT did that.

FOUR 50+ point games, THREE of which were in "must-win's". Of course, where were KAJ's, Hakeem's, Russell's, Shaq's, Duncan's, and Moses' 50 point playoff games? And those four 50 point games, came in his scoring prime, in his first 52 playoff games (actually, his first 36.)

FOUR entire post-seasons of 33.2, 34.7, 35.0, and 37.0 ppg. FOUR playoff series of 37 ppg, 37 ppg, 39 ppg, and 39 ppg, and in his scoring prime, which covered four of his six playoff seasons in that span.

Yep. Most of the all-time GOAT players, aside from MJ, PALED in comparsion to what a prime scoring Chamberlain was putting up. But, since Wilt didn't score 50 ppg in the post-season, well, he was a choker.

ONLY Chamberlain was held to that standard.

[LAZERUSS]

Yep.

He admits to doing so in his autobiography, "Wilt." After winning the title in Philly, he deliberately tried to win the assists title the next season... even if it detracted from his and the team's overall play.

Typical Wilt move. He got that title. The team lost. And he blamed them for the loss... despite him putting his stat-padding glory above everything else all season.

Yep...Chamberlain sure hurt his team in that 67-68 season, when he "selfishly" went for the assist title. His Sixer team could only go 62-20, which was only eight games better than the next best team.

And who would have known at the time, that because of his "selfish" play, that his team would be DECIMATED by injuries in the EDF's (including Wilt, himself...and when as Russell said, "a lessor man would not have played"), and lose a game seven by four points.

Typical Wilt.

[riseagainst]

he's a choker.

[LAZERUSS]

Rings are TEAM accomplishments. Wilt Chamberlain has been to 12 Conference Finals, 6 NBA Finals, and was an eyelash away from 4-5 more rings. Wilt in his scoring prime averaged 32.6 PPG and had 4 50-point games in the playoffs. Where are Jordan's games where he outrebounded his opposition by 10+ RPG and held alltime great centers to 40% shooting?

Either Duece has finally come to his senses, or someone hacked his account.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Wilt was traded for 'less' because he was suffering from severe stomache and health problems from the start of the season. Checking in and out of hospitals it was revealed he'd had heart problems and a possible heart attack. Warriors assumed he was on borrowed time in the league and traded him quickly before word got out about his potentialy declining health. That turned out to be a mistake on their part, as Wilt lead the Sixers to a title over, you guessed it, the Warriors. Nice try pretending it was because Wilt wasn't any good or w/e nonsense you were trying to push though

That sounds interesting*. I'd love to read a link about it.

Because everything I read indicates the Warriors were losing money. And, the deal also included a lump sum of cash and a player who didn't even report... saving the club cash.

Remember, it wasn't the only time the league's most dominant player was traded for bit parts. Dr. Jack Ramsay traded Wilt too.



* I hope it's not quotes from Wilt himself. The list of lies the man told is quite lengthy... which kind of ruins his credibility about most things. He played in almost every game that season.

[Bush4Ever]

One question:

How do his scoring performances look WITHIN year, as opposed to between years?

If you look between years, there are a number of statistical and logical problems. Especially if you just take the average.

[dankok8]

Another unresearched post. Of course, coming from a Kareem fan, I would have expected it, since he was arguably the biggest underachiever among the GOAT candidates, of all-time.

Let's start with Wilt. His team's lost to the eventual champion, TEN times in his post-season career. FIVE in game SEVEN's, and in FOUR of those game seven's, by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points, and in series', and key games in which his fellow teammates PUKED all over the floor. NINE points away from being the champion, FOUR times.

Now, how about your "close calls"...

MJ in '89. His team lost a game SIX by nine points, to the eventual champion Pistons. NOT close.

MJ in '90. His team lost a game seven, by 19 points to the eventual champion. NOT close.


KAJ in '72. Lost a game SIX on his home floor, to the eventual champion Lakers (led by Chamberlain's dominance in that game BTW.) NOT close.

KAJ in '74. True, lost a game seven, to the under-dog Celtics, on his home floor, in a game in which Cowens outplayed him in every facet of the game, and by...15 points. NOT close.

KAJ in '84. Lost a game seven, to a Celtic team that they should have SWEPT, in a series in which Kareem shot .481 from the floor, by NINE points. NOT close.


Shaq in '05. Lost a game seven, to the Pistons, by six points. Of course, Detroit was BEATEN by San Antonio in seven games. NOT close.

Only Duncan would have anything close to a case. Still, looking at the final margins in his last game of those series,


Duncan in '04. Lost a game SIX, by 12 points, to a Laker team that was ROUTED by the Pistons in the Finals. Not even remotely close.

Duncan in '06. Lost a game seven, by eight points (yes, in OT though), to the eventual champion Mavs. I could give you this one, but then you would have to give Wilt at least '70, when his team was jobbed by the officiating in game five (as reported by a NEW YORK TIMES writer Leonard Koppett.)

Duncan in '13. Should have won in six. Lost a game seven by seven points.


Still, NONE of them were decided by four points, or less, were they. As for KAJ, he was losing to lower seeds, year-after-year, in the 70's, and being outplayed in several series (even some wins.)

As for Wilt's TEAMMATES in those game seven losses...

In '62, (two point loss), I don't have the numbers, BUT, his teammates collectively shot .354 in the entire post-season that year. That he could single-handedly carry a pathetic and aging team as far as he did was just incredible.

In '65 (one point loss), again, I don't have his teammates numbers, but statistically they were badly outscored in that series. Meanwhile, Chamberlain took what had been a roster that had gone 34-46 the year before, without him, to that game seven, one point loss, against a HOF-laden Celtic team that had gone 62-18, with a 30-32 performance, on 80% shooting from the floor, in a series in which was probably the most one-sided beatdown ever administered by one GOAT on another GOAT candidate.

In '68. (four point loss). His injury-riddled teammates shot 33% from the field (and he was playing injured, with injuries that would have had Reed and KAJ watching from home.)

In '69 (two point loss), while Wilt completely outplayed Russell in that game, hios incompetent coach benched Chamberlain in the last five minutes. Oh, and Russell's teammates collectively outshot Wilt's from the field by...get this... a .477 to .360 margin in that game seven.


Chamberlain was a total of NINE points away from FOUR rings. No other all-time great can make that claim. In the examples you gave, they were seldom nine points away in even ONE game.

Oh I've done my research... Consider the context too not just the final score.

In '90 ECF Game 7 to take a few words out of your vocab, MJ's teammates puked all over themselves... They shot get this 15/63 or 23.8%... Yes that is NOT a typo. Jordan's teammates shot 23.8%! Pippen had that migraine game and Grant was downright terrible. I've seen that game.

In '72 Kareem's Bucks lost 3 games to the Lakers by 1, 3, and 4 points respectively playing with serious injuries to Oscar, McGlocklin, and Jones. And it took a career high 40+ game from role player Jim McMillian to beat them in Game 2 by 1 point! I'd say it's pretty close.

In '74 Kareem's Bucks lost in 7 games with 2 starters injured... Oscar (hobbled) and Lucious Allen (did not even play).

In '84 Finals Kareem had just one bad game (the infamous Heat Game in the Garden - Game 5) but he totally killed it in the other games. Problem is Magic (and Worthy) choked away both Game 2 and Game 4 and ended up losing both in OT. Ever heard of Tragic Magic?

In '05 Heat were up 3-2 on the Pistons and looked in control but then Wade got injured. Dwyane completely MISSED Game 6 and was a total shell in Game 7.

In '04, Horry hit a back-breaking shot to win Game 5 for LA. Without that Spurs are up 3-2 with home court.

For Duncan '06 and '13 are no-brainers.

Wilt of course had his share of close losses. My point is almost every great did. It's kind of a weak argument. And honestly in '62 and '68 I'm far from sure Philly would have won the title even if they got past Boston. LA was no joke in those years...