Is Bird the best off ball player in NBA history?

[stalkerforlife]

yes....yes larry bird is the best off ball player in nba history.... white people are so desperate to be the best @ something in basketball.Well here u can have best off ball player in nba history..take it...Are you happy now op?MAN I HATE WHITE PEOPLE!

I don't see color.

[pauk]

He was the greatest player to adopt off ball plays but i dont think he was the greatest AT off ball playing.... that was Reggie Miller for me, certainly Jordan & Kobe agree, thats all he did for 48 minutes, 24-7 for 20 years, his bag of tricks was ridicilous...

[CavaliersFTW]

He was the greatest player to adopt off ball plays but i dont think he was the greatest AT off ball playing.... that was Reggie Miller for me, certainly Jordan & Kobe agree, thats all he did for 48 minutes, 24-7 for 20 years, his bag of tricks was ridicilous...

How good was Jordan at flopping? Are you still working on the flop video?

[pauk]

How good was Jordan at flopping? Are you still working on the flop video?

Well, very good i guess, he was very smart, he knew how to exploit foul draws on both ends.... Its only called a "flop" when the foul drawing attempt fails but when it doesnt its a "veteran move" in Jordans time... from what ive seen so far & footage collected most often he got caught when he tried to draw a charge, so many "flops" there for him... its a very usual "flop" players get caught with, but thats not the only flops he got caught with & i have so far... and yes like i promised the video will happen.... and again, remember, im doing this only to show that any player in NBA history can look like the GOAT flopper if you stack all the flops he ever did into a video.... hate doing this to Jordan, but love doing this to you nay sayers... it will feel great... :)

[Lebronxrings]

i think lebron is up there. People will laugh but his cuts are dangerous and his one touch passes are very lethal. Not to mention he can hit the J.

[3ball]

And yea, Bird relied EXCLUSIVELY on off-ball and post-up game [/B]

As you can see above, MJ had great passing highlights too while playing off-ball.. Also, Bird DID rely exclusively on off-ball and post.. Don't try to tell me he took guys off the dribble like a primary ballhandler, pg-style.

Granted, his handle was sick and he was capable (as the gifs show below), but it just wasn't something his team needed from him back then - it wasn't like he had teammates spreading the floor with great 3-point shooting to make drive-and-kick the force it is today - THEN his team might've needed some ball-domination from him like today's wings do.

[3ball]

Jordan had a great off ball game, better than the superstars today, but when it comes to knowing where to be on the court at all times to hurt the other team the most, give me Bird over Jordan.

Most guys are biased because they associate off-ball play with JJ Redick - they don't think of MJ as an "off-ball" player, so it's very easy for them to say Bird's off-ball game was better.. But in reality, MJ did stuff off-ball that Bird could only dream of doing (see gif above)..

Also, Bird relied exclusively on his off-ball/post game because that's the only way he could score consistently.. Otoh, MJ's off-ball game was only HALF of his game.. As a guard, there was a default level of primary ballhandler responsibilities that he was forced to undertake just by virtue of being a guard with great handle.

You're showing clips that showcase Jordan's quick decision making and explosive first step more than his off ball game.

You have a misunderstanding of what off-ball play is.. When a player is running off-ball and then makes a quick move upon the catching the ball (first gif above) - this is off-ball play, as opposed to the far more time-consuming live-dribble/ball-domination (2nd gif).

All the MJ gifs I posted show catch-and-go drives out of the triple-threat position (pre-dribble, stationary position) - it's something many of today's best wings know nothing about (i.e. the live-dribble kings - harden and lebron - they never catch-and-go and rarely operate out of the triple-threat).

Also, the drop-step gifs are obviously off-ball plays - when a player moves off-ball, then catches the ball, and then drop-steps and scores, that's an off-ball play... And most of MJ's drop-step plays are one of a kind - no one in history has the overall athleticism necessary to make any of those plays - that's why MJ is the only guy in history making those types of hangtime, dipsy-do shots off a drop-step.
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[OldSchoolBBall]

[B]Compares to MJ's? No, Bird's off-ball game was better than MJ's.

Disagreed. I'd say they were equal, possibly slight edge to MJ at his best.

[ralph_i_el]

You have a misunderstanding of what off-ball play is.. When a player is running off-ball and then makes a quick move upon the catching the ball (first gif above) - this is off-ball play, as opposed to the far more time-consuming live-dribble/ball-domination (2nd gif).

Ok, so AI should be considered one of the GOAT off-ball players. I agree with that. He tortured dudes running around screens, getting them tired and off-balanced.

[3ball]

Ok, so AI should be considered one of the GOAT off-ball players. I agree with that. He tortured dudes running around screens, getting them tired and off-balanced.

What I said was basic common knowledge - when a player is moving off-ball and makes a quick move upon the catch, that's an off-ball play...

AI's game included some of this, but it also included some of the longest dribbling forays of anyone.. Iverson was a heavily ball-dominant player.. This is obvious.

[ralph_i_el]

What I said was basic common knowledge - when a player is moving off-ball and makes a quick move upon the catch, that's an off-ball play...

AI's game included some of this, but it also included some of the longest dribbling forays of anyone.. Iverson was a heavily ball-dominant player.. This is obvious.

sure he had his share of ISO's, because he played the majority of his career without any offensive help. I remember the majority of his possessions involving him running around screens to get the ball, catching it with his man tired, chasing him, and off-balance....and at that point it was trivial for him to get a shot off.

I wish I had stats to compare the amount of ISO's AI used compared to MJ.