Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > InsideHoops Main Basketball Forums > NBA Forum

NBA Forum NBA Message Board - NBA Fan Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-22-2007, 10:59 AM   #31
dejordan
Mars Blackmon Lives!
 
dejordan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,322
dejordan has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: Ranking of players in their absolute primes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy D for MVP
Jordan+Duncan= Dynasty.
they'd win every year. that's not a joke. i honestly think if jordan and duncan played on the same team their whole careers they would win every single year until they were both 35. (as long as they started in 98 and not 84. no way two rooks upset the celts and lakeshow at their pinacles).
dejordan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2007, 11:01 AM   #32
gb8
Extra Cheese
 
gb8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Everywhere You Wanna Be
Posts: 2,456
gb8 has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: Ranking of players in their absolute primes

Quote:
Originally Posted by dejordan
here's my take on your magical 91-93 jordan bulls v. shaq bulls:

that team has 4 centers (cartwright, perdue, williams, king) to foul shaq with. that's 24 fouls before we start sending guards and forwards down to do it. they just cut his effectiveness severely and gave up no offense to do it because the bulls didn't use those guys for offense. they used michael jordan who the shaq-pippen would be covering. unfortunately that means they'd be covering the jordan-pippen with bj armstrong, cliff levingston, john paxson, and craig hodges. can you say 'must double on catch?'

oh, and let's revisit the pippen guarding jordan idea. scottie couldn't clamp clyde at all in the 92 series. now he's going to lock up mj? the other problem with this is that scottie is a great on the ball defender, but jordan wouldn't be the primary ball-handler. the other pippen would. jordon would be flashing and coming off screens and cutting to the rim, and scottie has never been at his best chasing guys on defense. he needs to be set so that he can coordinate everyone as the defensive coach on the floor, and in order to use his combination of length and speed to best effect he really needs to be on the ball (either for a ball-handler or a post player). jordan chased 2 guards in the first dynasty and he and harper in the second dynasty.

and then there's the question of clutch shooting. what happens when the game is close and jordan nails an 18 footer with 6 seconds left? you going to watch shaq choke at the line or scottie choke off the dribble? or is phil going to run paxson off 3 screens and hope to god the other phil coaching on the other side doesn't just switch the last one and have ho, mj, or scottie swat it back at him?

the problem is that i don't think there's a 2 guard out there (or sf) that they could trade cartwright for who would make the slightest difference unless krause was able to completely bamboozal someone. not that cartwright was that bad, but you'd need someone capable of guarding mj or scottie, and anyone that athletic would be out of reach. i mean detroit's not giving you rodman or dumars. you won't get majerle. no one of that caliber is an option, so you're basically going to have to bring out a gerald wilkins (whom mj torched repeated as a cav and laker) or someone like that which won't make the slightest difference in the series. on top of which that still doesn't cover your clutch shooting needs. you might be able to package some combination of players to get someone, but at that point you're really dealing with totally different teams.

i COPLETELY agree about shaq and kobe being a much better match than jordan and kobe. if i had mj and kobe together i would start trying to trade #8 or 24 for garnett or someone like that immediately.


I havent got time to do a big indepth breakdown of why a team of pippen shaq and grant is better then mj pippen grant, but i take yoru point on boards i just repectfully disagree with most of what you have written. It is easy to skew any discussion with pure specualtion. Shaq would create so many open shots to the shooters on the bulls it wouldnt even be funny. Plus the defensive impact of having a behemouth shaq in the lane will make a bigger imapct then u may think. Btw sorry about the lack of indepth analysis am way to engrossed in the shakira beyonce video.lol
gb8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2007, 11:40 AM   #33
dejordan
Mars Blackmon Lives!
 
dejordan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,322
dejordan has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: Ranking of players in their absolute primes

Quote:
Originally Posted by gb8
I havent got time to do a big indepth breakdown of why a team of pippen shaq and grant is better then mj pippen grant, but i take yoru point on boards i just repectfully disagree with most of what you have written. It is easy to skew any discussion with pure specualtion. Shaq would create so many open shots to the shooters on the bulls it wouldnt even be funny. Plus the defensive impact of having a behemouth shaq in the lane will make a bigger imapct then u may think. Btw sorry about the lack of indepth analysis am way to engrossed in the shakira beyonce video.lol
not to worry. and it definitely is easy to skew a perspective on pure speculation, but "What if Shaq replaced Jordan on the Bulls" requires a lot of speculation

i get the basic premise, and against just about any other team i might actually agree - that is to say the shaq led bulls might manage to win rings and be great as well, but personally, i don't like them head to head against jordan's team. i just don't think that phil jackson would double shaq (the point i made about the 4 centers) based on the fact that he didn't double him in 96 when the bulls swept the magic. so shaq would get his, but he'd get beat up doing it and have to go to the line a helluvalot, and i don't see anybody else really shining for that team unless he draws doubles. i know jordan-scottie would cover shaq-scottie and jordan-grant would cover shaq-grant, so i don't really see either of them drawing doubles or exploding for big games. shaq would have an influence on defense as an anchoring shotblocker in the paint, something they never really had. the thing is the bulls only had two guys who took it to the rim, and they were both very good finishers and hard to block. it sure wouldn't stop jordan or pippen from penetrating out of fear - no way shaq hit them as hard as mahorn, lambeer, mason, oakley, and x-man, and it would open him up to foul trouble (esp on mj who was a relentless attacher of the rim) and open the boards up to offensive rebounds (perdue and scott in particular were good at taking advantage of this).

actually let's look at the magic v. bulls series from 96 because it might be a pretty good measure for what we'd be dealing with. the bulls used their center depth (luc, wennington, and the moldering bones of buddha edwards and spider salley) along with the occasional annoying spot defense from rodman to keep shaq off-balance. he still had a great series, but it kept nick anderson, dennis scott, and horace grant in check because the open shots they depended on were gone. then scottie, mj, and harper switched off and on penny maintaining size and great pressure on him all the time. penny had a couple good games but in effect was also turned into a one on one player because they refused to double him, and so again nobody could get the role players easy shots. that's what led to the sweep. so let's assume phil jackson (bulls team jackson) would coach it the same way since he has similar matchup potential at all positions. seems logical you'd have the same basic results with shaq and scottie able to score in one on one confrontations but the rest of the team completely taken out of the its offense. it might go 6 or 7 instead of 4 because shaq's better in his prime, and the team defense would be better with phil coaching them as well. if the games are close at the end though, one team has the game's best finisher and the other doesn't.

now a totally different question is whether the team would be better against other teams. i think they'd be just as effective against more teams, more effective against some (because the other 27 teams - no cats, raps, or griz - weren't coached by phil), and still pretty much in trouble in games that required clutch scoring at the end.

Last edited by dejordan : 03-22-2007 at 11:44 AM.
dejordan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2007, 11:47 AM   #34
bleedinpurple
Decent college freshman
 
bleedinpurple's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: NYC & Phoenix
Posts: 1,982
bleedinpurple has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: Ranking of players in their absolute primes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendetta
Prime Shaq > Prime Anybody Else

bleedinpurple is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2007, 12:10 PM   #35
EricForman
Good college starter
 
EricForman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,347
EricForman has decent reputationEricForman has decent reputation
Default Re: Ranking of players in their absolute primes

i'm probably the second or third biggset jordan fan here, and I believe he is the GOAT.

But I believe Prime Shaq to be the single greatest, most dominating, most effective player EVER.

But Shaq's absolute prime lasted one, two years. Jordan's had two different primes (physical prime late 80s mental prime mid 90s) lasting damn near a decade, so on all time ranking, Jordan is still far and away the GOAT.

But just by a one year basis?

2000 version of Shaq above anyone.

30, 13, 3 blocks, 60% shooting, matchup problems for every opposing team, frees up teammates for open looks, easy lanes, clogs up the lane and anchors the D.

Don't throw me those inflated stats of Wilts. 2000 Shaq could average 55 and 30 back in those days too. Hell, prime Jordan would probably average like 5 steals and 2.5 blocks a game in Wilt's era with those unathletic white guys balling. (he'd probably shoot near 60% too)

Some people still don't seem to realize Wilt and Oscar's numbers are inflated and skewed, because someone will always bring up "how can you not count Oscar he averaged a triple double" or make the same statement for Wilt. Seriously. Look at the leading rebounders list, Wilt is not the only one who grabs 20 plus boards a game. You got like 6'8 white guys grabbing 17 a game. Do you think KG wouldn't average 22+ boards a game back in those days? Or look at someone with ridiculous quckness and athletism like Jordan, who guards him out on the perimeter? How does Jordan not get 10 dunks every game and pick off about 6 steals a game? Who guards Shaq and stops him from shooting 70%?

Guys like Grant Hill, Pip, jordan, Lebron have come about 2 rebounds and dimes away from averaging a triple double, you don't think they coulda gotten those 2 extra rebounds and dimes in the 60s? Hell, they'd more than average 2 extra rebounds, more like 6 extra rebounds. Pip would probably average like 15 boards a game back in those days to go with his 20 points and 10 dimes.

Last edited by EricForman : 03-22-2007 at 12:22 PM.
EricForman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2007, 12:17 PM   #36
dejordan
Mars Blackmon Lives!
 
dejordan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,322
dejordan has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: Ranking of players in their absolute primes

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricForman
i'm probably the second or third biggset jordan fan here, and I believe he is the GOAT.

But I believe Prime Shaq to be the single greatest, most dominating, most effective player EVER.

But Shaq's absolute prime lasted one, two years. Jordan's had two different primes (physical prime late 80s mental prime mid 90s) lasting damn near a decade, so on all time ranking, Jordan is still far and away the GOAT.

But just by a one year basis?

2000 version of Shaq above anyone.
i'm not going to try to change your mind, but for me it always comes back to shaq's anti-clutch factor. they would have lost game 7 to the blazers that year if harper and kobe hadn't shot them back into it while the blazers went into a slump. then in the finals kobe had to single handedly win the OT game to keep them from going to a game 7. i'm not saying he wasn't the player most destructive to a team defense that ever played, because he clearly was, but i feel like guys like magic, larry, and mj, produced similar results and were also there to put their teams over the edge at the end of close ones. just my take on things and totally open to interpretation.
dejordan is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:39 AM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site















Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy