Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 72
  1. #16
    3-time NBA All-Star
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    10,507

    Default Re: Kobe being held down individually by Shaq is way overblown

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal9
    There's certain things you learn and develop quicker when you are the #1 guy. In Kobe's case it would be his intelligence, passing (or rather willingness to do it) leadership, creativity (would definitly have to create more for others) skill, all of which improved rapidly when he was given the team
    .

    Intelligence - You would think playing with great teammates from the beginning of his career would help him become a much greater decision maker ala Magic and Bird right? Who both played with great players there whole career and as a result, never really had a problem with balance.

    Passing (willingness to do it) - WTF, this is absolutely ridiculous. Playing with great teammates from the beginning of your career should make a player MORE WILLING to pass. What sense does that make? If a player is playing with crap from the beginning of his career and for a long time, how would that make a player a more willing passer?

    Leadership - Sure, Kobe didn't get as much opportunity to experience that as much as someone like Jordan or Lebron. However, its ridiculous to act like the guy got no experience at all. During the time with Shaq, Shaq missed a total of 110 games. That's alot of time. Now much of that is from Kobe's early years, but its nobody's fault Kobe just wasn't that good his first few years. On top of that during much of that time, Kobe was the man in the 4th quarter that was carrying his teams to victories because Shaq was such a liability. And because of the great teams around him and Shaq's liabilities, he experienced many deep playoff runs where he got the opportunity to lead these teams in close games. Seriously, the whole "leadership" argument is overexaggerated.

    Creativity (would definitly have to create more for others) - Umm, wasn't Kobe considered the "primary facilitator" for these Laker teams? So wasn't he the guy that had the greatest responsibility in "creating for others"?

    Skill - LOL seriously this is getting ridiculous. So Kobe didn't get to work on his game as much cause of Shaq? Just because he might've not been able to showcase his skills as much doesn't mean he didn't have the opportunity to develop his skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal9
    If he had this privilege since 2001ish...one can only wonder how many 33+ ppg seasons we could have seen.
    Well in the 5 seasons he's had since playing with Shaq, he's done it once, and thats when he was in his "prime ages" that you referred to. So going by those rates, probably about 0-1.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal9
    He also would have had the chance to wait and have a contending team built around him so years like 2006 and 2007 (ages at which Jordan won rings...and prime ages for most players) wouldn't be completely wasted.
    Jordan was greater then Kobe ever was by arguably 24, at least 25 which was the beginning of his prime. From the beginning of his career till about 27 (1990), his all-time great basketball ability was wasted with crap teammates. Its completely ridiculous to bring up Kobe's "wasted" years and compare it to Jordan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal9
    Ideal situation for maximizing your legacy is getting a chance to put up mind blowing stats early on in your career as you wait for your team to improve. If you lose in the playoffs, it's because of the cast so you're excused. Then as you get around 26-27, management should have put nice pieces around you (unless they fck up) and you are on a contender for your prime and late-prime years (as #1 option, which is key).
    LOL, thats funny cause Jordan was putting up mind blowing stats even when he was playing on championship teams. During the first three peat he put up statlines of 32/6/6 on 54 FG%, 30/6/6 on 52 FG%, and 33/7/6 on 50 FG%. Sure, its not as great as his previous 4 years, but you really think it was more ideal for him to put up mindblowing stats while getting nowhere with his crap teams instead of winning championships/seriously contending with great teams while putting up a little less mindblowing stats? Seriously, when has it ever been a good thing for someone to spend half of his career with teams that sucked?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal9
    Helps even more if the competition at the top of the league wanes as your team gets better.
    It helped Bird and Magic that Jordan had nowhere near a good team to contend with them. For 8 years, it helped that Kobe didn't have to be another ringless player in the way of one of the most dominating players ever, and instead got to win rings with him and propell himself to a reputation that he probably wouldn't be at right now (1 title vs. 4 titles).

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal9
    This gives you all those early individual accomplishments and then later on the team ones as well.
    Doesn't sound like it was ever a problem a with Magic and Bird. Both of those guys were putting up mindblowing stats with all-time great teams. The same can be said about Jordan. How come you don't say Kareem had an ideal situation? He got all the opportunity to put up mindblowing stats on bad teams and then he had about the same amount of teams to contend for titles.

    Anyway, its completely ridiculous to act like Kobe hasn't had a fair shot at enhancing his legacy. At this point, he's had more then a fair shot, and with the way things are going right now, by the end of the next 4-5 years, he will most likely end up with most ideal situation of any player ever at enhancing his legacy.
    Last edited by guy; 10-17-2009 at 12:33 PM.

  2. #17
    Bol'd over
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Singapore, via Australia
    Posts
    9,095

    Default Re: Kobe being held down individually by Shaq is way overblown

    Quote Originally Posted by guy
    .

    Intelligence - You would think playing with great teammates from the beginning of his career would help him become a much greater decision maker ala Magic and Bird right? Who both played with great players there whole career and as a result, never really had a problem with balance.

    Passing (willingness to do it) - WTF, this is absolutely ridiculous. Playing with great teammates from the beginning of your career should make a player MORE WILLING to pass. What sense does that make? If a player is playing with crap from the beginning of his career and for a long time, how would that make a player a more willing passer?

    Leadership - Sure, Kobe didn't get as much opportunity to experience that as much as someone like Jordan or Lebron. However, its ridiculous to act like the guy got no experience at all. During the time with Shaq, Shaq missed a total of 110 games. That's alot of time. Now much of that is from Kobe's early years, but its nobody's fault Kobe just wasn't that good his first few years. On top of that during much of that time, Kobe was the man in the 4th quarter that was carrying his teams to victories because Shaq was such a liability. And because of the great teams around him and Shaq's liabilities, he experienced many deep playoff runs where he got the opportunity to lead these teams in close games. Seriously, the whole "leadership" argument is overexaggerated.

    Creativity (would definitly have to create more for others) - Umm, wasn't Kobe considered the "primary facilitator" for these Laker teams? So wasn't he the guy that had the greatest responsibility in "creating for others"?

    Skill - LOL seriously this is getting ridiculous. So Kobe didn't get to work on his game as much cause of Shaq? Just because he might've not been able to showcase his skills as much doesn't mean he didn't have the opportunity to develop his skill.



    Well in the 5 seasons he's had since playing with Shaq, he's done it once, and thats when he was in his "prime ages" that you referred to. So going by those rates, probably about 0-1.



    Jordan was greater then Kobe ever was by arguably 24, at least 25 which was the beginning of his prime. From the beginning of his career till about 27 (1990), his all-time great basketball ability was wasted with crap teammates. Its completely ridiculous to bring up Kobe's "wasted" years and compare it to Jordan.



    LOL, thats funny cause Jordan was putting up mind blowing stats even when he was playing on championship teams. During the first three peat he put up statlines of 32/6/6 on 54 FG%, 30/6/6 on 52 FG%, and 33/7/6 on 50 FG%. Sure, its not as great as his previous 4 years, but you really think it was more ideal for him to put up mindblowing stats while getting nowhere with his crap teams instead of winning championships/seriously contending with great teams while putting up a little less mindblowing stats? Seriously, when has it ever been a good thing for someone to spend half of his career with teams that sucked?



    It helped Bird and Magic that Jordan had nowhere near a good team to contend with them. For 8 years, it helped that Kobe didn't have to be another ringless player in the way of one of the most dominating players ever, and instead got to win rings with him and propell himself to a reputation that he probably wouldn't be at right now (1 title vs. 4 titles).



    Doesn't sound like it was ever a problem a with Magic and Bird. Both of those guys were putting up mindblowing stats with all-time great teams. The same can be said about Jordan. How come you don't say Kareem had an ideal situation? He got all the opportunity to put up mindblowing stats on great teams and then he had about the same amount of teams to contend for titles.

    Anyway, its completely ridiculous to act like Kobe hasn't had a fair shot at enhancing his legacy. At this point, he's had more then a fair shot, and with the way things are going right now, by the end of the next 4-5 years, he will most likely end up with most ideal situation of any player ever at enhancing his legacy.

  3. #18
    Good college starter EricForman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2,993

    Default Re: Kobe being held down individually by Shaq is way overblown

    Quote Originally Posted by All Net
    Shaq's legacy has certainly been boasted alot by getting to play with top tier shooting guards throughout his career no doubt.
    To you and the other posters who are implying that Shaq wouldnt have won without Kobe.

    Can you understand that 2000 Kobe wasn't a superstar level player? He wasn't top ten in the league, and for every playoff series he was arguably the 3rd or 4th best player on the court.

    So yes, 2000 Kobe was replaceable with at least 3-4 other SGs in the league that year.

  4. #19
    Moderator All Net's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    19,921

    Default Re: Kobe being held down individually by Shaq is way overblown

    Quote Originally Posted by EricForman
    To you and the other posters who are implying that Shaq wouldnt have won without Kobe.

    Can you understand that 2000 Kobe wasn't a superstar level player? He wasn't top ten in the league, and for every playoff series he was arguably the 3rd or 4th best player on the court.

    So yes, 2000 Kobe was replaceable with at least 3-4 other SGs in the league that year.
    You really shouldn't assume things like that.

    2000 he was replaceable but after that? highly debatable that you could just plug any SG and it would of been the same result. The performances Kobe had in those Kings, Spurs series take alot of clutch and plenty of heart to deal with the pressure. There were plenty of players who could of had the same amount of huge games but there is no lock they could of performed at the same high level.

    With all that said Shaq was so dominant that he likely would of been able to win titles anyway even if he didn't have a top tier SG. If he had the right role players around him he would of likely still won. However having those top guards certainly didn't hurt.
    Last edited by All Net; 10-17-2009 at 05:37 AM.

  5. #20
    3-time NBA All-Star
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    10,507

    Default Re: Kobe being held down individually by Shaq is way overblown

    Quote Originally Posted by Heilige
    What do you consider late prime years?
    I would assume 1993 since that was the end of his prime. I'm not even sure what "late prime" years could mean other then that.

  6. #21
    3-time NBA All-Star
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    10,507

    Default Re: Kobe being held down individually by Shaq is way overblown

    Quote Originally Posted by All Net
    You really shouldn't assume things like that.

    2000 he was replaceable but after that? highly debatable that you could just plug any SG and it would of been the same result. The performances Kobe had in those Kings, Spurs series take alot of clutch and plenty of heart to deal with the pressure. There were plenty of players who could of had the same amount of huge games but there is no lock they could of performed at the same high level.

    With all that said Shaq was so dominant that he likely would of been able to win titles anyway even if he didn't have a top tier SG. If he had the right role players around him he would of likely still won. However having those top guards certainly didn't hurt.
    I don't think anyone is saying you could replace Kobe in 2001 with any SG and they have the exact same result, as in a 15-1 most dominating playoffs ever. Short of Jordan, Magic, or Bird, I don't think you can replace 2001 Kobe with anyone and they would've gotten that result. Kobe was just that dominant that year and was that much in sync with Shaq. But could they replace him with one of the best SG/SFs in the league at the time and still win a title, not necessarily in that dominating fashion? Sure.

    As far as 2002 goes, maybe not. But I don't think it really matters since the Lakers probably shouldn't have won a title that year anyway.

  7. #22
    Laker fan here shadow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    So. Cal.
    Posts
    2,827

    Default Re: Kobe being held down individually by Shaq is way overblown

    I don't think the initial argument is fair.

    2005 was just a bad year with injuries and the coach ditching the team mid-way. Plus Kobe played like **** just jacking up shot after shot without any structured offense.

    2008 and 2009 are also different because the stats came down due to him having help, much like when Shaq was there. Which brings me to my main point. I wouldn't say Shaq held him back. It goes by logic that if you have multiple star-type players on a team, the stars' stats will come down. By OP's logic you can also argue Kobe held shaq back because shaq would have likely scored more if he was going solo on a bad team. IMO they did each other a favor, 3 big ones.

  8. #23
    3-time NBA All-Star
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    10,507

    Default Re: Kobe being held down individually by Shaq is way overblown

    Quote Originally Posted by shadow
    I don't think the initial argument is fair.

    2005 was just a bad year with injuries and the coach ditching the team mid-way. Plus Kobe played like **** just jacking up shot after shot without any structured offense.
    Injuries are part of the game. If his injuries were that bad, he wouldn't have played 66 games. And I'm not sure if the last sentence is an excuse for Kobe or you giving me support that Kobe not having better stats has little to do with Shaq.

    Quote Originally Posted by shadow
    2008 and 2009 are also different because the stats came down due to him having help, much like when Shaq was there. Which brings me to my main point. I wouldn't say Shaq held him back. It goes by logic that if you have multiple star-type players on a team, the stars' stats will come down. By OP's logic you can also argue Kobe held shaq back because shaq would have likely scored more if he was going solo on a bad team. IMO they did each other a favor, 3 big ones.
    I agree. But you can say this about so many players, but its never mentioned. Its never talked about with Magic, Bird, Shaq, Duncan who all played on great teams for there whole career. But for Kobe, its ALWAYS mentioned.

    And in the Jordan vs. Kobe argument, its never mentioned by Kobe fans that when Jordan did have great teammates, his stats are still greater then Kobe's with great teammates, whether it be with Shaq or Gasol/Odom.

  9. #24
    3-time NBA All-Star
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    10,507

    Default Re: Kobe being held down individually by Shaq is way overblown

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
    Kobe without playing with Shaq may ahve had a few extra ppg, but you wouldn't have seen him shooting around 47% like he was during the 3peat and you wouldn't have seen him playing deep into the playoffs and winning championships. In reality his legacy would be worse without the 3 extra rings. Kobe would never trade those 3 rings for 3 extra ppg for is career.
    Of course he wouldn't. Funny thing is for him to have added 3 more ppg to his career (28 ppg as opposed to 25 ppg), he would've needed to average about 5 more ppg during those 8 years (561 games) with Shaq. That's about 2800 points. Does anyone honestly think playing with Shaq cost Kobe 2800 points?

    Now alot of people like to say that if he didn't play with Shaq he'd have the stats Jordan has, who has a 30.1 career ppg. Does anyone realize how much of a mountain that would've been to climb? Kobe would've needed to add about 9 PPG to those 8 years (561 games) with Shaq. This would've brought his career average to about 30.4 ppg. That's about 5000 points! Anyone honestly think Shaq cost Kobe 5000 points?

  10. #25
    Local High School Star Solid Snake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    1,925

    Default Re: Kobe being held down individually by Shaq is way overblown

    Quote Originally Posted by guy
    Of course he wouldn't. Funny thing is for him to have added 3 more ppg to his career (28 ppg as opposed to 25 ppg), he would've needed to average about 5 more ppg during those 8 years (561 games) with Shaq. That's about 2800 points. Does anyone honestly think playing with Shaq cost Kobe 2800 points?

    Now alot of people like to say that if he didn't play with Shaq he'd have the stats Jordan has, who has a 30.1 career ppg. Does anyone realize how much of a mountain that would've been to climb? Kobe would've needed to add about 9 PPG to those 8 years (561 games) with Shaq. This would've brought his career average to about 30.4 ppg. That's about 5000 points! Anyone honestly think Shaq cost Kobe 5000 points?
    Snaq costs everyone, everything.

    /

  11. #26
    3-time NBA All-Star
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    10,507

    Default Re: Kobe being held down individually by Shaq is way overblown

    BUMP

  12. #27
    NBA Superstar eliteballer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    14,108

    Default Re: Kobe being held down individually by Shaq is way overblown

    No it's not. Kobe's stats from 97-2004 were higher in the games he played without Shaq than with. In 2003 without Shaq he was like 32/8/7 in games without shaq. In 2002 he had that 56 points in 3 quarters game without Shaq and in 2003 he started off the season putting up the best all-around numbers of his career when Shaq was out. In 2001 he was averaging about 30 PPG because he wanted the ball more and the next season went down to 25 PPG because he let Shaq have his way. Talents like Kobe become great no matter what, and playing on more talented teams just diminishes their stats.

  13. #28
    NBA Superstar eliteballer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    14,108

    Default Re: Kobe being held down individually by Shaq is way overblown

    Quote Originally Posted by EricForman
    To you and the other posters who are implying that Shaq wouldnt have won without Kobe.

    Can you understand that 2000 Kobe wasn't a superstar level player? He wasn't top ten in the league, and for every playoff series he was arguably the 3rd or 4th best player on the court.

    So yes, 2000 Kobe was replaceable with at least 3-4 other SGs in the league that year.
    LOL. Kobe was a 22/6/5 ALL NBA DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAM player. He hit that gamewinner against the Suns in Game 2 of the 2nd round, won game 4 in OT during the Finals when Shaq fouled out and in that famous game 7 vs. the Blazers?

    Shaq had 18 pts, 9 rebounds, and 5 assists.

    Kobe? 25 points, 11 rebounds, 7 assists, and 4 blocks

  14. #29
    7-time NBA All-Star
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    12,355

    Default Re: Kobe being held down individually by Shaq is way overblown

    Quote Originally Posted by eliteballer
    No it's not. Kobe's stats from 97-2004 were higher in the games he played without Shaq than with. In 2003 without Shaq he was like 32/8/7 in games without shaq. In 2002 he had that 56 points in 3 quarters game without Shaq and in 2003 he started off the season putting up the best all-around numbers of his career when Shaq was out. In 2001 he was averaging about 30 PPG because he wanted the ball more and the next season went down to 25 PPG because he let Shaq have his way. Talents like Kobe become great no matter what, and playing on more talented teams just diminishes their stats.
    Yes his stats would have been better, but he wouldn't have won nearly as much. His record was about .500 without Shaq during the 3peat and just 5-10 in 2002-2003. So what's better? Multiple 50 win seasons, a 67 win season, 4 finals appearances and 3 titles or better stats with 40-45 win seasons and early playoff exits?

    Quote Originally Posted by eliteballer
    LOL. Kobe was a 22/6/5 ALL NBA DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAM player. He hit that gamewinner against the Suns in Game 2 of the 2nd round, won game 4 in OT during the Finals when Shaq fouled out and in that famous game 7 vs. the Blazers?

    Shaq had 18 pts, 9 rebounds, and 5 assists.

    Kobe? 25 points, 11 rebounds, 7 assists, and 4 blocks
    Won game 4 of the finals? He finished the game, but without Shaq's 36 points and 21 rebounds they aren't in that game late to begin with.

  15. #30
    3-time NBA All-Star
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    10,507

    Default Re: Kobe being held down individually by Shaq is way overblown

    Quote Originally Posted by eliteballer
    No it's not. Kobe's stats from 97-2004 were higher in the games he played without Shaq than with. In 2003 without Shaq he was like 32/8/7 in games without shaq. In 2002 he had that 56 points in 3 quarters game without Shaq and in 2003 he started off the season putting up the best all-around numbers of his career when Shaq was out. In 2001 he was averaging about 30 PPG because he wanted the ball more and the next season went down to 25 PPG because he let Shaq have his way. Talents like Kobe become great no matter what, and playing on more talented teams just diminishes their stats.
    I didn't say he wasn't held down individually AT ALL, just that its been overexaggerated greatly as evident to the fact that he's had seasons with Shaq that were equal or better then some of his seasons without Shaq, and even better then one where his team wasn't talented like it has been for the past 2 years. Many people assume he would be a 30 ppg career scorer and won many more MVPs, but like I said this is far-fetched. People even say Kobe's legacy would've been better off had he not played with Shaq at all, which is really crazy IMO.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •