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Old 12-05-2012, 08:09 PM   #46
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Default Re: Republicans and rich people

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Originally Posted by DonDadda59
How about this- you answer my question first, then I will address yours. AGAIN, show me empirical data that backs up your claim that lowering taxes helps the economy, I'm still waiting.

Haven't taxes been the lowest in 60 years or something of that nature?

Was the economy really kick ass 60 years ago or is it better now?

Last edited by Balla_Status : 12-05-2012 at 08:11 PM.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:21 PM   #47
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Default Re: Republicans and rich people

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Originally Posted by Balla_Status
Haven't taxes been the lowest in 60 years or something of that nature?

Was the economy really kick ass 60 years ago or is it better now?

The top tax rate in relation to economic measures for the last 70 years:








BOMBSHELL: New Study Destroys Theory That Tax Cuts Spur Growth

One economic theory has been repeated so often for so long in this country that it has become an accepted fact:

Tax cuts spur growth.

Most Americans have gotten so used to hearing this theory that they don't even question it anymore.

One of our two Presidential candidates is so convinced of the theory that he has built his entire economic plan around it--despite the huge negative impact additional tax cuts would likely have on our debt and deficit.
But is the theory true? Do tax cuts really spur growth?

The answer appears to be "no."

According to a new study by the Congressional Research Service (non-partisan), there's no evidence that tax cuts spur growth.

In fact, although correlation is not causation, when you compare economic growth in periods with declining tax rates versus periods with high tax rates, there seems to be evidence that tax cuts might hurt growth. But we'll leave that possibility for another day.

One thing that tax cuts do unequivocally do--at least tax cuts for the highest earners--is increase economic inequality. Given that economic inequality is one of the biggest problems we face in this country right now, this conclusion is very important.

Before we go to the charts, a few observations.

First, this topic has become highly politicized, so it's impossible to discuss it without people howling that you're just rooting for a particular political team. Second, no one likes paying taxes. Third, everyone would like a tax cut, including me.

So I think we can all agree that everyone would prefer that tax cuts actually did spur economic growth.

...

Well, the bottom line appears to be that low taxes do not spur economic growth and DO cause greater economic inequality.

So, although it sounds like heresy, presidents and Congress-people who actually want to fix the economy might want to consider raising taxes rather than cutting them. Or, at the very least, keeping them the same.


Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/study...#ixzz2CP2lsjny
So the basic answer to your question is yes.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:28 PM   #48
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Default Re: Republicans and rich people

I have also read a study that FDR government intervention and policies slowed the economic growth as compared to letting the free market do its thing.

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla...sion-5409.aspx
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:41 PM   #49
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Default Re: Republicans and rich people

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Originally Posted by Balla_Status
I have also read a study that FDR government intervention and policies slowed the economic growth as compared to letting the free market do its thing.

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla...sion-5409.aspx

I honestly have no idea how FDR's 25% wage increase and antitrust collective bargaining deal affected the recovery during the depression, I haven't studied NIRA and its ramifications so I can't comment on that. But that article/study was written in 2004 so I wonder how the authors would feel about deregulation and tax cuts in 2008 and now. One thing that stood out to me there was this:
Robert E. Lucas Jr., the 1995 Nobel Laureate in economics, and the John Dewey Distinguished Service Professor of Economics at the University of Chicago. "The prevention and cure of depressions is a central mission of macroeconomics, and if we can't understand what happened in the 1930s, how can we be sure it won't happen again?"
We know the cause of the recession of '08. We have the empirical data for the decade long effects of tax cuts for the wealthy. We have 70+ years of data showing that the times of best growth, highest gdp, highest employment, economic boom, etc coincide with the higher top tax rates. If we double down on these failed policies, we're just going to get more of the same.

Last edited by DonDadda59 : 12-05-2012 at 08:43 PM.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:42 PM   #50
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Default Re: Republicans and rich people

Taxes are generally raised during prosperous times, and taxes are generally lowered during recessions. Thus, your numbers are irrelevant.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:47 PM   #51
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Default Re: Republicans and rich people

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Originally Posted by Math2
Taxes are generally raised during prosperous times, and taxes are generally lowered during recessions. Thus, your numbers are irrelevant.

SHOW ME THE NUMBERS

Stop with your theoretical bullshit and show me the empirical data that backs up your assertion that lower taxes=better economic growth. This is like the 20th time I've asked you for this in several different threads. And as always, I'll be here waiting when you're ready.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:53 PM   #52
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Default Re: Republicans and rich people

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonDadda59
I honestly have no idea how FDR's 25% wage increase and antitrust collective bargaining deal affected the recovery during the depression, I haven't studied NIRA and its ramifications so I can't comment on that. But that article/study was written in 2004 so I wonder how the authors would feel about deregulation and tax cuts in 2008 and now. One thing that stood out to me there was this:
Robert E. Lucas Jr., the 1995 Nobel Laureate in economics, and the John Dewey Distinguished Service Professor of Economics at the University of Chicago. "The prevention and cure of depressions is a central mission of macroeconomics, and if we can't understand what happened in the 1930s, how can we be sure it won't happen again?"
We know the cause of the recession of '08. We have the empirical data for the decade long effects of tax cuts for the wealthy. We have 70+ years of data showing that the times of best growth, highest gdp, highest employment, economic boom, etc coincide with the higher top tax rates. If we double down on these failed policies, we're just going to get more of the same.

That quote made me think about this article about macroeconomics.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/..._evidence.html

I've actually read that paper that Balla_Status posted and its a very good paper but research on macroeconomics like that is extremely hard to draw any firm conclusions from because the data is usually extremely flawed or non-existent.
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:22 PM   #53
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Post hoc conclusions made that create a causal link between a higher top tax rate and growth is fallacious. Also asking for simple aggregate data to show a relationship "lower top tax rate=growth" of something as intractable as the economy is fallacious as well.
As for my opinion on demand fortification; it creates short term spending power, not demand and in turn makes our economy reliant on consumerism. You get short term relief that pulls you out of a recession and people start thinking that we should continue down that path. Sustainable long term growth is not through demand fortification, but supply fortification. However, just looking at simple aggregate numbers and saying supply side is false, voodoo, whatever; you fail to look at circumstances. The wealthy do not invest in a risky environment during a recession, massive increases in military spending paired with tax cuts, etc.
A bigger problem then the fiscal cliff is reigning in the growth of our government spending. Raising the top tax rate will mean nothing if entitlement spending continues to grow at its current rate.
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:27 PM   #54
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Default Re: Republicans and rich people

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonDadda59
SHOW ME THE NUMBERS

Stop with your theoretical bullshit and show me the empirical data that backs up your assertion that lower taxes=better economic growth. This is like the 20th time I've asked you for this in several different threads. And as always, I'll be here waiting when you're ready.

Show me any way that your higher taxes makes sense. All you've done is show numbers that may or may not be skewed by the fact that taxes are generally raised during prosperous times. Numbers don't account for everything.
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:30 PM   #55
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Default Re: Republicans and rich people

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonDadda59
I honestly have no idea how FDR's 25% wage increase and antitrust collective bargaining deal affected the recovery during the depression, I haven't studied NIRA and its ramifications so I can't comment on that. But that article/study was written in 2004 so I wonder how the authors would feel about deregulation and tax cuts in 2008 and now. One thing that stood out to me there was this:
Robert E. Lucas Jr., the 1995 Nobel Laureate in economics, and the John Dewey Distinguished Service Professor of Economics at the University of Chicago. "The prevention and cure of depressions is a central mission of macroeconomics, and if we can't understand what happened in the 1930s, how can we be sure it won't happen again?"
We know the cause of the recession of '08. We have the empirical data for the decade long effects of tax cuts for the wealthy. We have 70+ years of data showing that the times of best growth, highest gdp, highest employment, economic boom, etc coincide with the higher top tax rates. If we double down on these failed policies, we're just going to get more of the same.

Common sense. You could use some. When a company pays more for less workers, what does that mean? They can't hire as many workers.
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:38 PM   #56
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Default Re: Republicans and rich people

Quote:
Originally Posted by Math2
Show me any way that your higher taxes makes sense. All you've done is show numbers that may or may not be skewed by the fact that taxes are generally raised during prosperous times. Numbers don't account for everything.

And Rush Limbaugh talking points don't account for shit. Either show me something to back up your claims or admit you have nothing but failed theory and special interest talk show blubber.
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:40 PM   #57
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Default Re: Republicans and rich people

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Originally Posted by Math2
It's called laws.....

You really want to to down that road? Law makes right?
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:55 PM   #58
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Default Re: Republicans and rich people

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Originally Posted by plowking

Those you proclaim as wealthy are so through income.

Fact is, those on a higher income are taxed more, and for what reason? Why doesn't everyone pay their % cut? Why should more income incur more tax? In gross terms, the higher income earners already are paying more, so why the need for a higher percentage as well?

Why should a millionaire pay more than someone making 25,000 dollars a year? The millionaire doesn't cut back on spending because he's asked to pay a little more. Lower income tax payers do cut back on spending when they are taxed more.

What happens in an economy where the majority of the people are spending less? What happens when rich people put money in an account and it doesn't move? Increasing taxes on these people doesn't change their lives.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:00 PM   #59
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Default Re: Republicans and rich people

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Originally Posted by RoseCity07
Increasing taxes on these people doesn't change their lives.


Not them specifically, just everyone else. They may be living just as comfortably, but if you tax a millionaire who is a business owner, he'll either raise the price of his product or lay off some of his employees. Hitting the rich won't do any good either.

You have to give incentive for those to open their own businesses, while at the same time providing relief for the middle class.
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Old 12-05-2012, 10:06 PM   #60
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Default Re: Republicans and rich people

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Originally Posted by Scoooter
I don't think they give a "rat's ass" about me personally; they are after all trying to raise my taxes. And I don't care, because I'm not a selfish turd. Except for the notion that I realize an improving economy is good for me too.

American tax system is based on a voluntary system. If you want to pay more taxes and help the economy (lulz) then go ahead.
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