Better Defensive Anchor: Ben Wallace or Dikembe Mutombo?

[Teanett]

I can't say I agree with your take on the 2004. Shaq abused Wallace during the first game, but the rest of the series he got jobbed by Wallace. Shaq performed way, way below his usual level that series.

not true. shaq shot like 64% the entire series. ben wallace was barbecue chicken to him.
the only reason the lakers lost is kobe's sub par performance.

game 1, 34 pts, 13-16 fg
game 2, 29 pts, 10-20 fg
game 3, 14 pts, 7-14 fg
game 4, 36 pts, 16-21 fg
game 5, 20 pts, 7-13 fg

barbecue chicken!

[StateOfMind12]

In Ben's case, I feel some of his best defensive characteristics were those often considered "small" or "details". As you mentioned, he was a fantastic pick & roll defender. Whenever Wallace comes up around here I usually mention it, but that's because I find it to be important and true. He hedged the crap out of pick & rolls and recovered with great vigor and effectiveness. And I think that speaks to a larger portion of Wallace's defensive abilities, particularly in comparison to Mutombo. Wallace was very mobile. While Mutombo could move as well, he couldn't do it like Ben, which did allow Wallace to affect teams defensively in different respects than Dikembe

I think one could argue that it would depend in the era. Back in the 90s, there were plenty of dominant/scoring Centers like Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Olajuwon, Mourning, etc. so having a great post defender was more valuable back then.

However, in today's game and for the past 6-7 years since Shaq's prime ended, the dominant/scoring Centers are relatively weak now. It is more important to be able to disrupt pick and rolls and stop penetration of perimeter players than it is to contain dominant big men 1 on 1.

I do think "the shot blocker" gets incredibly overrated though. For whatever reason, people believe that the shot blocker is automatically the anchor and the reason as to why a team is great defensively and that is false. Tyson Chandler completely turned around the Knicks defensively last year and he is not a very good shot blocker but he is great at defending the pick and roll and defending the post.

It is why I think Duncan's defense was overrated and was worse than KG's, but that's a different story.

[LJJ]

Maybe I'll have to go back and re-watch some games. I just have this memory of O'Neal scoring at will. Each games seemed to begin with Lakers gameplan of feeding O'Neal in the post and letting him go to work. He'd score at will and seemingly through the flow of the game, his touches would just stop coming. I remember wondering if there was some kind of Larry Brown genius involved, where maybe he somehow knew he could get away with single Shaq coverage because O'Neal would either tire or his teammates would just stop going to him. Again though, maybe I'll just have to give it another look.

Edit: I gave a quick glance at the box scores from that year's finals and I think O'Neal shot 50%+ in each contest, including 13-16 in the aforementioned game 1 and 16-21 in game 4. In the other contests, the only thing lacking seemed to be his field goal attempts. I'd love to think that was Wallace playing some sort of great deny defense but again, I have a better memory of O'Neal dominating, but somehow giving way to Bryant and company as the game progressed.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...406130DET.html

Forgot about that 4th game, I guess there were two games where Shaq abused Wallace.

Still though, Shaq was just coming of series where he solely dominated the Wolves and the Spurs on the glass. And in the finals against Wallace he suddenly can't even get 10 boards most games.

[Teanett]

Forgot about that 4th game, I guess there were two games where Shaq abused Wallace.

Still though, Shaq was just coming of series where he solely dominated the Wolves and the Spurs on the glass. And in the finals against Wallace he suddenly can't even get 10 boards most games.

what?
shaq averaged 10.8 rebounds in 5 possession games that series.

the notion that wallace would bother him in the slightest is a myth.
if it wasnt for kobe's and payton's bricklaying there wouldnt be a ring for detroit. i would even go so far as saying, the reputation of that team would be like the jason kidd-led nets because they couldnt beat the spurs the next year either.

[Clippersfan86]

what?
shaq averaged 10.8 rebounds in 5 possession games that series.

the notion that wallace would bother him in the slightest is a myth.
if it wasnt for kobe's and payton's bricklaying there wouldnt be a ring for detroit. i would even go so far as saying, the reputation of that team would be like the jason kidd-led nets because they couldnt beat the spurs the next year either.

Dude the Pistons won in 5, it wasn't close. Stop discrediting that team and Wallace. Shaq had his way with any and everybody in his prime but the numbers don't tell much in this case. Wallace did a very respectable job on prime Shaq who was a good 7 inches taller and 80+ pounds heavier.

I don't remember the exact numbers but if I recall Wallace held him to 3 rpg and a shooting percentage of 10 percent less than what Shaq was averaging in the playoffs prior to the finals.

[Teanett]

Dude the Pistons won in 5, it wasn't close. Stop discrediting that team and Wallace. Shaq had his way with any and everybody in his prime but the numbers don't tell much in this case. Wallace did a very respectable job on prime Shaq who was a good 7 inches taller and 80+ pounds heavier.

I don't remember the exact numbers but if I recall Wallace held him to 3 rpg and a shooting percentage of 10 percent less than what Shaq was averaging in the playoffs prior to the finals.

dude, shaq shot 63% and averaged 10+ rebounds. he shot 59% and 13 rbg for the whole playoffs.
big ben was chicken salad with croutons, with mustard and honey sauce!

finals vs pistons: 27/11
playoffs: 21/13

chicken wings with ketchup!

[Clippersfan86]

dude, shaq shot 63% and averaged 10+ rebounds. he shot 59% and 13 rbg for the whole playoffs.
big ben was chicken salad with croutons, with mustard and honey sauce!

finals vs pistons: 27/11
playoffs: 21/13

chicken wings with ketchup!

I just remembered what I was getting confused. Go on basketball reference and look up Ben Wallace career H2H vs Shaq. His rebounding is about 9 rpg vs Wallace and his shooting percentages are down. That's a much greater sample size than the 5 game finals series. Even then Shaq vs Wallace isn't the topic here. Shaq in his prime was hands down the most unstoppable physical force in NBA history. To expect generously listed 6'7 250 pound Wallace to stop the 7'1 350 pound monster is a joke and a bad way to evaluate.

I remember when I was in HS I was 5'10 and 170 ish. My buddy was a varsity player for both basketball and football (linebacker) and was 6'5 240+ pounds of muscle. It was hell for me guarding him because I literally could do nothing physically when he posted me up. Point is the size disadvantage between these two is astounding so for Wallace to do a respectable job on him H2H over a career deserves mad props.

I didn't mean to imply this wasn't a good comparison because it is. I just give Wallace the edge over Mutumbo due to defensive versatility. Could guard more positions, played the passing lanes etc. Wallace was a more complete defender but Dikembe dominated the rim defense slightly more. When you factor in that Mutumbo was a 7'2 270 pounder though and Wallace was 6'7 240 generously Wallace becomes even more impressive. Dikembe had a great build for a defensive anchor, Wallace didn't.

[Rake2204]

Dude the Pistons won in 5, it wasn't close. Stop discrediting that team and Wallace. Shaq had his way with any and everybody in his prime but the numbers don't tell much in this case. Wallace did a very respectable job on prime Shaq who was a good 7 inches taller and 80+ pounds heavier.

I don't remember the exact numbers but if I recall Wallace held him to 3 rpg and a shooting percentage of 10 percent less than what Shaq was averaging in the playoffs prior to the finals.

I have to say, I definitely am of the belief that the Pistons won that series more than the Lakers lost it (if that makes sense), but I don't think there's any getting around the idea that Shaq more or less dominated Ben Wallace when he received the ball in the post during that series. The numbers do sort of tell a story here.

Further, being a Pistons fan who recorded a lot of games back in the day, then re-watched them over and over (including the entire 2004 Finals), I don't recall getting any sort of feeling that Wallace was able to do anything to prevent O'Neal from establishing five feet from the rim and doing as he pleased. That doesn't mean Wallace wasn't spectacular elsewhere, because I think he was, but Ben wasn't much more than a fly in comparison to Shaq's power.

On the flip side, I watched the '01 Finals (Mutombo vs. Shaq) but I must admit I haven't re-watched them, so I cannot recall how effective Mutombo was in the same position. My lasting memory is Deke taking power elbows to the chest and grill on Shaq's dropsteps leading up to a monster dunk. I don't really think there was much of anybody who was going to be stopping O'Neal during his prime, so I'm not sure if he's a good reference point for comparison between Mutombo and Wallace.

[Clippersfan86]

I have to say, I definitely am of the belief that the Pistons won that series more than the Lakers lost it (if that makes sense), but I don't think there's any getting around the idea that Shaq more or less dominated Ben Wallace when he received the ball in the post during that series. The numbers do sort of tell a story here.

Further, being a Pistons fan who recorded a lot of games back in the day, then re-watched them over and over (including the entire 2004 Finals), I don't recall getting any sort of feeling that Wallace was able to do anything to prevent O'Neal from establishing five feet from the rim and doing as he pleased. That doesn't mean Wallace wasn't spectacular elsewhere, because I think he was, but Ben wasn't much more than a fly in comparison to Shaq's power.

On the flip side, I watched the '01 Finals (Mutombo vs. Shaq) but I must admit I haven't re-watched them, so I cannot recall how effective Mutombo was in the same position. My lasting memory is Deke taking power elbows to the chest and grill on Shaq's dropsteps leading up to a monster dunk. I don't really think there was much of anybody who was going to be stopping O'Neal during his prime, so I'm not sure if he's a good reference point for comparison between Mutombo and Wallace.

I watched all 5 games of the 01 finals and Mutombo also got obliterated by Shaq. In Mutumbo's defense he was in his mid-late 30's by then but even during his career Shaq shit on him regularly. The only center Shaq DIDN'T regularly take a dump on is Hakeem that I saw.

[Lil-Wild]

Larry Brown : D

[Whoah10115]

Not even close dude. Wallace could defend SG's and SF's and was a much more capable perimeter defender. He also had multiple 2 steals per game seasons and many of them were man defense, just pull up the footage anywhere and see for yourself. You're definitely overhyping Mutombo.

You're wrong here. First of all, Wallace never averaged 2SPG. Second, while I agree Wallace could get out and guard on-ball, he wasn't David Robinson. He's not guarding SF's like that. When he says man defender, he means (or at least should mean) post defender. Dikembe was definitely a better post defender.

[Whoah10115]

Maybe I'll have to go back and re-watch some games. I just have this memory of O'Neal scoring at will. Each games seemed to begin with Lakers gameplan of feeding O'Neal in the post and letting him go to work. He'd score at will and seemingly through the flow of the game, his touches would just stop coming. I remember wondering if there was some kind of Larry Brown genius involved, where maybe he somehow knew he could get away with single Shaq coverage because O'Neal would either tire or his teammates would just stop going to him. Again though, maybe I'll just have to give it another look.

Edit: I gave a quick glance at the box scores from that year's finals and I think O'Neal shot 50%+ in each contest, including 13-16 in the aforementioned game 1 and 16-21 in game 4. In the other contests, the only thing lacking seemed to be his field goal attempts. I'd love to think that was Wallace playing some sort of great deny defense but again, I have a better memory of O'Neal dominating, but somehow giving way to Bryant and company as the game progressed.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...406130DET.html

Yes and no. Shaq did score at will. Wallace did not job him. That's ridiculous. But maybe less criticism should be leveled at Bryant and more praise heaped on the Detroit defense, as they denied Shaq the ball a lot.

[eliteballer]

Ben Wallace because of superior mobility.

[Clippersfan86]

You're wrong here. First of all, Wallace never averaged 2SPG. Second, while I agree Wallace could get out and guard on-ball, he wasn't David Robinson. He's not guarding SF's like that. When he says man defender, he means (or at least should mean) post defender. Dikembe was definitely a better post defender.

Shoot me for not looking it up but his career average of steals was nearly 1.5 which is pretty amazing for your center. Couple seasons he got close to 2. You guys like circular lawyer arguments around here where rather than adressing the point you try to pick apart what somebody said. The bottom line is Wallace was more versatile and complete defensively.

[Whoah10115]

Shoot me for not looking it up but his career average of steals was nearly 1.5 which is pretty amazing for your center. Couple seasons he got close to 2. You guys like circular lawyer arguments around here where rather than adressing the point you try to pick apart what somebody said. The bottom line is Wallace was more versatile and complete defensively.

You said multiple seasons over 2. Two seasons at 1.8 and one at 1.7 is far off.


I'm not circumventing a real discussion. I agree he's more versatile and I think there's an argument for him over Mutombo. But as a man defender, he isn't better than Mutombo, as most of the man defense these guys played was in the post. There, Mutombo was better.