Dirk is better than KG.

[Brunch@Five]

KG has a better career FG%, and .4 TOPG more than Dirk over their career is hardly huge. You're talking like KG averages like 15ppg over his career... and of course omitting the fact that Garnett has him beat in every other facet of the game.

I'm talking impact. You can't build a top-tier offense around KG. He is versatile and can score from all inside the 3point area, but Dirk's pick/roll play and mid-post game is far superior and dominant enough to run your entire offense around it.
That's what seperates guys like Shaq, Magic, Bird, Dirk, MJ, Duncan and Hakeem offensively from other guys: the dominance in that one aspect that opens everything up for the entire team. (Bird, Magic and MJ of course doing it in more than one way, Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan being superior in the low post - I'm not putting Dirk on their level as an overall player). You can give Dirk the ball in the mid-post or play p/r on top and let your offense work around it. Can't do that with KG.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

I'm talking impact. You can't build a top-tier offense around KG. He is versatile and can score from all inside the 3point area, but Dirk's pick/roll play and mid-post game is far superior and dominant enough to run your entire offense around it.
That's what seperates guys like Shaq, Magic, Bird, Dirk, MJ, Duncan and Hakeem offensively from other guys: the dominance in that one aspect that opens everything up for the entire team. (Bird, Magic and MJ of course doing it in more than one way, Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan being superior in the low post - I'm not putting Dirk on their level as an overall player). You can give Dirk the ball in the mid-post or play p/r on top and let your offense work around it. Can't do that with KG.

The Pierce/Garnett and Rondo/Garnett pick and rolls are among the most dangerous in basketball. You can give Garnett the ball in the low post in this era and he'll dominate, see last year's playoffs. The only reason the Celtics got a sniff of the conference finals was because KG abused teams inside and in the pick and pop. Often Garnett gets the ball in low post and is good enough of a passer to get the guy who passed it then cut to the basket a layup. He averages more apg than Nowitzki, too...

Offensively, yes, Dirk has the greater impact. Defensively, there's a far larger gap in impact, and it's not in Dirk's favour... I just can't believe how people ignore this when this argument comes up every other week. Garnett is one of the best defenders ever, Dirk is average at best. The offensive gap is not that wide, and don't insult yourself trying to say it is...

I'm interested to know what your definition of "top-tier" is, by the way... the Mavs haven't had a top 5 offense since 2006-07.

[Bigsmoke]

[QUOTE=Phiology]
Passing: D

[Djahjaga]

What the hell are assists? A defensive stat?

There is quite literally nothing Dirk does better than KG other than shooting and scoring. This doesn't need to get more complicated than that.

Now you want me to believe he's a better player than Garnett because he averages a few more PPG and can shoot threes and free throws better? That's ridiculous.

[Djahjaga]

I'm talking impact. You can't build a top-tier offense around KG. He is versatile and can score from all inside the 3point area, but Dirk's pick/roll play and mid-post game is far superior and dominant enough to run your entire offense around it.
That's what seperates guys like Shaq, Magic, Bird, Dirk, MJ, Duncan and Hakeem offensively from other guys: the dominance in that one aspect that opens everything up for the entire team. (Bird, Magic and MJ of course doing it in more than one way, Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan being superior in the low post - I'm not putting Dirk on their level as an overall player). You can give Dirk the ball in the mid-post or play p/r on top and let your offense work around it. Can't do that with KG.

And you can't build a top-tier defense around Dirk. Show me a team where Dirk has been the main rim/paint protector that has achieved more defensively than the 08 Celtics? Even the 04 Wolves had a top ranked defense ffs.

http://asubstituteforwar.com/2011/04...es-no-garnett/

Multiple studies have shown Garnett's defensive impact to be historically great, even when surrounded by incredibly shitty defensive teams.



Are we throwing away the whole "defense wins championships" thing, or what? Are we gonna ignore that KG is one of the best passing big men of all-time? Or are we gonna keep talking abstractly about what Dirk brings to the offense without offering tangible proof? Yeah, I watched the 2011 playoffs and my jaw was on the ground for most of it, but that doesn't mean Dirk is somehow better than KG.

[Brunch@Five]

What the hell are assists? A defensive stat?

There is quite literally nothing Dirk does better than KG other than shooting and scoring. This doesn't need to get more complicated than that.

Now you want me to believe he's a better player than Garnett because he averages a few more PPG and can shoot threes and free throws better? That's ridiculous.

yes it does need to get more complicated than that, because simply saying "Dirk is a better scorer and shooter and worse at everything else" is missing the point. As a complete package, Dirk is way better and more dominant than KG on offense, and that includes creating scoring opportunities for his teammates.
Btw, not only is Dirk better at shooting, he is also better at driving to the basket.

[Djahjaga]

yes it does need to get more complicated than that, because simply saying "Dirk is a better scorer and shooter and worse at everything else" is missing the point. As a complete package, Dirk is way better and more dominant than KG on offense, and that includes creating scoring opportunities for his teammates.
Btw, not only is Dirk better at shooting, he is also better at driving to the basket.

Dirk is not and has NEVER been better at creating opportunities for his teammates. That's a f*cking joke. The two are much closer on offense simply because of KG's far superior passing game.

And you're ignoring defense, yet again.

[Bigsmoke]

Garnett is like that only 7 footer since Wilt to average at least 6 assists a game before and these white boys in ISH trying to claim that Dirk is a better passer

[Djahjaga]

Garnett is like that only 7 footer since Wilt to average at least 6 assists a game before and these white boys in ISH trying to claim that Dirk is a better passer

It's f*cking revisionism. Even if we ignore the stats, watch a handful of games of either and the answer is clear. But now Dirk proponents want to tell us he's better at passing and has better intangibles? Ridiculous.

[Brunch@Five]

read my posts properly. I said "create scoring opportunities for his teammates", not "pass them the ball for an open shot". He creates scoring opportunities because a) he's a mismatch for almost all opponents and b) when he sets screens the defense cannot switch and the big man has to stay with him and cannot help and c) you can give him the ball in the mid-/high-post, basically at the center of the court where the ball is most dangerous.
Never did I say that he was a better passer, because he isn't. But neither was Shaq or Hakeem or Duncan, and they certainly created more scoring opportunities than KG too, right?

[Djahjaga]

read my posts properly. I said "create scoring opportunities for his teammates", not "pass them the ball for an open shot". He creates scoring opportunities because a) he's a mismatch for almost all opponents and b) when he sets screens the defense cannot switch and the big man has to stay with him and cannot help and c) you can give him the ball in the mid-/high-post, basically at the center of the court where the ball is most dangerous.
Never did I say that he was a better passer, because he isn't. But neither was Shaq or Hakeem or Duncan, and they certainly created more scoring opportunities than KG too, right?

This implies that A. Garnett doesn't have a comparable, and in some cases superior, effect in those circumstances. and B. that Garnett's far superior passing ability doesn't negate any advantage Dirk may have in "creating scoring opportunities for his teammates."

While Dirk is obviously a bigger threat, you can't leave Garnett on the PnR either. And while we're discussing screens, Garnett is one of the best screen setters of all time.

The T-wolves ran their offense through Garnett all the time, mainly through the high or pinch post. Garnett created just as many scoring opportunities as Dirk in those situations, and his far superior passing is enough to outscore Dirk in this area, as well.

Note that, for Dirk, these are all pros that are dependent on his ability to score the ball. In other words, they're a product of his shooting and scoring ability. Garnett offers so much more. This is a guy who scored 25,000 points with a pass first mindset.

[Brunch@Five]

This implies that A. Garnett doesn't have a comparable, and in some cases superior, effect in those circumstances. and B. that Garnett's far superior passing ability doesn't negate any advantage Dirk may have in "creating scoring opportunities for his teammates."

I am absolutely implying that, but realize that it's merely an opinion. I dunno if stats do verify it. So we'll to agree to disagree.

While Dirk is obviously a bigger threat, you can't leave Garnett on the PnR either. And while we're discussing screens, Garnett is one of the best screen setters of all time.

I don't wanna put KG down, and he obviously sets great screens (often bordering the illegal), but you can absolutely leave him at the 3point line, so his setting a screen does not distort the defense as much as Dirk does.

Note that, for Dirk, these are all pros that are dependent on his ability to score the ball. In other words, they're a product of his shooting and scoring ability. Garnett offers so much more. This is a guy who scored 25,000 points with a pass first mindset.

You're right, but what does that mean? Dirk's scoring ability, thus the way he is defended, is not gonna change from one possession to the next.


KG and Dirk were not that dissimilar in playing style, KG being a better passer but Dirk being a more dominant and efficient scorer. That might equal out in the creating for others department, but still leaves only Dirk being a bonafide go-to guy in the clutch, making Dirk much more valuable on offense than KG overall.

[Pointguard]

You continue to ignore the questions. If KG is so much better...where was the impact in 02 in the series...seems to me in order for KG to anchor a good defense he needs help. Shocking how that works. I didn't say why didn't KG just stop Dirk...I said why he didn't impact that series at all defensively

The coach. The coach didn't know how to use Garnett, coach wasn't defensive minded at all. The first year KG gets a defensive coach its one of the best defensive teams in history. KG was never on an offensive minded team either. Minny was just a mess. The '08 Celtics would have absolutely destroyed that Maverick's team. But its all on the coach. KG can't just go and start guarding Dirk. Dirk rarely guarded KG in KG's prime period. In general Dirk rarely guarded other superstars.

I just want to be clear on something here. You are saying that Dallas won on the fluke? That they were lucky enough that 4 players all of whom will be ranked top 3 in playoff history at their positions, had mysteriously coincidental horrible performances?

[DMAVS41]

The coach. The coach didn't know how to use Garnett, coach wasn't defensive minded at all. The first year KG gets a defensive coach its one of the best defensive teams in history. KG was never on an offensive minded team either. Minny was just a mess. The '08 Celtics would have absolutely destroyed that Maverick's team. But its all on the coach. KG can't just go and start guarding Dirk. Dirk rarely guarded KG in KG's prime period. In general Dirk rarely guarded other superstars.

I just want to be clear on something here. You are saying that Dallas won on the fluke? That they were lucky enough that 4 players all of whom will be ranked top 3 in playoff history at their positions, had mysteriously coincidental horrible performances?

No. I said any time a huge underdog team wins...you can call it a fluke if you want. I think the Mavs won because they all had ice water in their veins late in close games. Of course everything and everyone goes into a championship. You could credit Trevor Ariza with the 09 Lakers title if you want to look at things the way you do. Without him they don't win.

So I don't get the point. The Mavs won tight game after tight game the entire playoffs...and I'd credit Dirk the most for that by far.

And you still can't grasp the point. So here it is again. If Dirk can be the clear cut best player and most valuable player...and play by far the most minutes (7 more than anyone else per game)...on a team that, according to you, plays the best defense ever...and wins the title going through all the best players and best teams...then maybe his so called "deficiencies" don't impact things as much as you claim...

You see?

[Legends66NBA7]

I don't know if Hakeem or Duncan would have won in Minny...I'd bet my life they have more success than KG did though. And it wouldn't shock me to see one of them find a way to get by the Lakers in 04.

I don't know about Duncan, since his team already lost in the second round with a 2-0 series lead, as well. However, he would have better weapons, if Cassell is healthy, so I see what your saying. Duncan was also injured that year, I believe, so it probably comes down to his healthy too. I can see Hakeem changing the series a lot more and outplaying Shaq.

Tell me which superstars had less help than Dirk en route to winning the title in the last 30 years. Please answer.

Though you didn't ask me, it's probably Hakeem's Rockets in 94 and Duncan's Spurs in 03.

Rick Barry in 75 would also be in the conversation too, but you did say last 30 years... I can see if someone wanted to say the Pistons in 04 and Heat in 06, but I thought the all-around depth was there.