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Old 02-16-2011, 10:52 PM   #46
DJMason
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Default Re: Kevin Love

Quote:
Originally Posted by FCardelle
Because I am comparing hardcore fans with head coaches, get it?


I didn't get it right the first time. But this is also false. You prefer a larger sample for the same survey. But, of course, you prefer a good survey with an adequate sample than a bad survey with a huge sample.


All-NBA first team???

Okay one last try then I swear I'm calling it quits

a) Duncan was picked by the coaches because he's a legend, the same way MJ was when he played for the Wiz even though his play didn't warrant it. Again though, IMO if the majority of average NBA fans don't think you're even close to being an allstar as the voting indicated then you aren't overrated.

b) Basically the allstar vote and RealGM poll are "bad" in terms of their succeptability to bias since they are just open internet polls that are in no way rigurously conducted by trained statisticians since it would be a waste of resources and time. I've already given my reasons for why the RealGM poll is more succeptable to things like sampling and non-response biases etc., but even if it isn't you still prefer a larger sampling size for equally (un)reliable polls, which these are.

c) I will concede that all-NBA first team would also likely overrate him, but I have yet to hear anyone call for it let alone enough people to say that the majority of people are doing it and therefore overrating him.

Seriously though, at this point agree to disagree. Cheers.
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Old 02-16-2011, 10:59 PM   #47
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Default Re: Kevin Love

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Originally Posted by bokes15
Here's my thing. 21ppg? Nothing special. Right now there's 20 people in the league putting up 20+ ppg and a countless number of people in the 16-20 range, and there's been many throughout history who have done that. 15+ rpg hasn't been done since Dennis Rodman and 20/15 hasn't been done since Moses Malone. He would be joining such an elite exclusive group, hell yeah he deserves to be an all-star. It shouldn't even be a debate.

For the record, I DO think he should be an All-Star. I just simply don't care. I'm glad he is though.
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Old 02-17-2011, 12:44 AM   #48
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Default Re: Kevin Love

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
Here's my thing. 21ppg? Nothing special. Right now there's 20 people in the league putting up 20+ ppg and a countless number of people in the 16-20 range, and there's been many throughout history who have done that. 15+ rpg hasn't been done since Dennis Rodman and 20/15 hasn't been done since Moses Malone. He would be joining such an elite exclusive group, hell yeah he deserves to be an all-star. It shouldn't even be a debate.
Agreed. Not to mention that the bad team excuse isn't even a valid response. How many bad teams have there been? Like a bazillion. How many guys have averaged these numbers? Exactly. I f*cking hate the bad team excuse, because it should even out, sure you get more opportunities but the other team also has to try and stop you more than if you had better players on your team, hence why you usually see guys that become the star of the bad team have awesome numbers at first, then teams adjust to them, or atleast try. Of course this is all obvious to everyone except lilb and FC.

Also I know lilbeastnani is a troll, but I think FCardelle is a full out retard.
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Old 02-17-2011, 05:31 AM   #49
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Default Re: Kevin Love

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Originally Posted by DJMason
Again though, IMO if the majority of average NBA fans don't think you're even close to being an allstar as the voting indicated then you aren't overrated.
They only selected 5 players per conference instead of 12, so we don't know. The only thing we know from the NBA pooll is that he still don't have too many fans (at the same level of Dirk or Duncan).

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJMason
Seriously though, at this point agree to disagree. Cheers.
Cheers.
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Old 02-17-2011, 08:30 AM   #50
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Default Re: Kevin Love

Quote:
Originally Posted by FCardelle
They only selected 5 players per conference instead of 12, so we don't know. The only thing we know from the NBA pooll is that he still don't have too many fans (at the same level of Dirk or Duncan).


Cheers.
We know that out of 8+ mill votes for the forward position in the west, he commanded about 5% of those votes. There are only 2 forward selections, correct, but 5-6 players doubled or even triple him in votes. Only two guys (Gay and Al Jefferson) got less votes than he did at his position. Which as DJMason said is actually counterproductive to your own point because casual fans underrate him (all-star votes) and "hardcore fans" from your poll appreciate his game.
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Old 02-17-2011, 08:52 AM   #51
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Default Re: Kevin Love

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
We know that out of 8+ mill votes for the forward position in the west, he commanded about 5% of those votes. There are only 2 forward selections, correct, but 5-6 players doubled or even triple him in votes. Only two guys (Gay and Al Jefferson) got less votes than he did at his position. Which as DJMason said is actually counterproductive to your own point because casual fans underrate him (all-star votes) and "hardcore fans" from your poll appreciate his game.
As I see it...
1.Casual fans: Thet vote for the players they like the most among those they know, no matter their play level this season.
2.Hardcore fans: They overrate Kevin Love as you can see in the RealGM poll.
3.Head Coaches: I assume they are the best judges for a player value. They didn't select Kevin Love for the all-star. We don't know how far he was, though.
4.Commisioner: He selected Kevin Love as replacement because he thinks it is the fans' desire, looking after the business

Of course you can disagree on any of those points.
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Old 02-17-2011, 09:47 AM   #52
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Default Re: Kevin Love

Quote:
1.Casual fans: Thet vote for the players they like the most among those they know, no matter their play level this season.
Agree.

Quote:
2.Hardcore fans: They overrate Kevin Love as you can see in the RealGM poll.
Disagree for the reasons i've already posted, plus i'm in total agreement with DJMason's reasoning. A knowledgable fan saying that he deserves to be an all-star this season is not at all overrating the guy.

Quote:
3.Head Coaches: I assume they are the best judges for a player value. They didn't select Kevin Love for the all-star. We don't know how far he was, though.
Then you assumed incorrectly. All-NBA teams, MVP's, all defensive teams, etc... are more often than not based on the best players in the league over the course of the season. All-star selections by the coaches should be based on who is having the best season up until the point where they do their voting. However, coaches have the tendency sometimes to vote for guys because of what they've done over the course of their career rather than what they've done thus far in that particular season. Also, they sometimes pick the "best" player rather than the player who is playing the best. It's why Pau Gasol made it and Odom didn't despite Odom being the better player at the midpoint of the season. It's why Tim Duncan made it in while putting up 13/9 while Kevin Love didn't originally make it putting up 21/15.

Quote:
4.Commisioner: He selected Kevin Love as replacement because he thinks it is the fans' desire, looking after the business
Yes, he voted Love as a replacement because the 5% of fans who voted for him in the first place have a strong desire for him to be there. The casual fan probably doesn't even know who Kevin Love is let alone having a desire for him to play in the all-star game.

Of course you can disagree on any of those points.[/quote]
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Old 02-17-2011, 12:41 PM   #53
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Default Re: Kevin Love

Great players get stuck on bad teams all the time. Great players get stuck playing system ball that does not promote the players best game.

Great players, regardless of a team sucess should be considered for an All Star game. The basis of the All Star game is to showcase the leagues best players, not the leagues best players from winning teams. Or the teams who are put together the best to play "system ball" that makes a the player look better due to the system played.

And that folks is the issues with the NBA All Star selection process. I know the argument made regularly is, if the team is not winning how good could that player possibly be. And it is a valid point, but it should not be the determining factor.

IMO, Kevin Love should have been selected as a starter.
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Old 02-18-2011, 05:26 PM   #54
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Default Re: Kevin Love

http://basketball.realgm.com/blog/21...oves_Challenge
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Old 02-18-2011, 06:31 PM   #55
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Default Re: Kevin Love

Thank you! That article pretty much backs up my claim. Poor defender, not so great on offense, and minimal impact on his team winning basketball games. Overrated. Period. Everyone loves bringing up how the last person to put up 21/15 for a whole season was Moses Malone in 82-83. What people don't mention is that his team won 67 games that year and was first in the EC, AND they won the championship that year. Moses Malone and Kevin Love should not even be mentioned in the same sentence and the comparison is no comparison at all.
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Old 02-18-2011, 07:07 PM   #56
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Default Re: Kevin Love

I think you might need to give the article a second read. The author essentially states that the numbers he is putting up is historical in nature and if he had better players around him the Wolves would be in the playoff mix.
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Old 02-18-2011, 07:37 PM   #57
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Default Re: Kevin Love

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni
I think you might need to give the article a second read. The author essentially states that the numbers he is putting up is historical in nature and if he had better players around him the Wolves would be in the playoff mix.
He also called him a bad defender who's numbers on the offensive end make up for his poor defense. Sound familiar?

Quote:
So let’s address his defense first. Love isn’t a great defender. At a glance at his normal stats, you don’t see reams of blocks or steals. The advanced defensive stats don’t favor him (the team is worse per 100 possessions when he’s on the floor, he’s at 108 DRTG, etc) and an eye test doesn’t show him looking great at man defense either.

He’s not a good shot blocker, doesn’t play passing lanes a lot and he’s got a height disadvantage on many nights. This isn’t the recipe for a dominant defender, and that’s fine. He is not, however, much of a positive defender. He has nearly two defensive win shares so far this season, which is decent overall, but he gets a block every three games, a steal a little more often than every other game and if he’s taken a charge this year, I haven’t seen it.

He and Zach Randolph make the fewest defensive plays per game of any PF playing 30+ mpg (that’s steals, blocks and charges). This accounts for help defense, to a point, and it has flaws as an analysis but it squares with what everyone says: Love is a bad defender.


Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/blog/21...#ixzz1EMRmTECj

Last edited by lilbeastnani : 02-18-2011 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 02-20-2011, 12:05 AM   #58
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Default Re: Kevin Love

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Originally Posted by lilbeastnani
He also called him a bad defender who's numbers on the offensive end make up for his poor defense. Sound familiar?

His Defense is still way better than punani's.
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Old 02-20-2011, 12:31 AM   #59
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Default Re: Kevin Love

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Originally Posted by bluerap
His Defense is still way better than punani's.
Offense is better too. But really there is no comparing the two. Love is miles ahead.
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