Final list of ISHs Top 25 Guards.

[Kblaze8855]

I get him being behind DJ. Im not sure id have voted it that way but I can say Dennis was arguably the best player on a title team(tossup between him and gus) and was an all nba first team type who played a major part of winning 3 rings.

He was an elite player.

Reggie never was. Reggie just makes no sense where he is.

[PowerGlove]

I remember watching Jordan on WGN and NBC tripleheaders on Sunday when I was a kid but at the earliest I must have been six. Now I'm 21.

[magnax1]

I get him being behind DJ. Im not sure id have voted it that way but I can say Dennis was arguably the best player on a title team(tossup between him and gus) and was an all nba first team type who played a major part of winning 3 rings.

He was an elite player.

Reggie never was. Reggie just makes no sense where he is.

DJ was arguably the best player on a title team, but in the same way Ben Wallace was. It was just a stacked team with like 3 other guys who were borderline all star caliber. I also don't know about him being an all NBA first team type guy. More like a borderline all star guy. He only made 2 all NBA teams in his career. He was a good defender, but his offense was pretty average, maybe a bit above for 3-4 years.
And if Reggie doesn't make sense where he is, neither does Ray Allen. The only real separation between the two was that Reggie was a bit better scorer for a longer period, and Allen was a better passer. TMac over him is crazy, as in TMac is just way to low for me, but Reggie is just about right.

[Kblaze8855]

I kinda wonder why you wouldcall Reggie a better scorer than Ray. hes no a better shooter. Not a better shooter off the dribble. hes not approaching pre Celtics Ray as a slasher. Ray was banging on people often enough to stop being impressed by it. Reggie had an underrated post game but he only used it twice a week. And Ray did the same.

I think Reggie is a better scorer than his low ppg suggests...but not that much better. I think people assume he wasnt shooting more because he was just a nice guy or trying nto to press it or something...he just didnt get many good looks because he couldnt create seperation without screens.

Reggie over Ray as a scorer feels like a "Because I think he could have" thing. Not like he was even shooting epic percentages. Ray has put up 22+ a game on 48% shooting and 43% from 3 and 88 at the line. His numbers just drop due to the 3s. At one point he took over 8 3s a game and still shot 40+ percent.

I just dont see the case for Reggie over ray as a scorer by skills or anything else.

[L.Kizzle]

Its funny to me how people talk up accomplishments and winning when only one of the top 15 didnt lead his team to more success than Cousy did without Russell.

Cousy is a name. He didnt actually take his teams anywhere. But a lot of "Winning matters most" types prop him up as if they didnt notice the Celtics were better without him.


edit:

At a glance...18 people of the 25 had more playoff success than Cousy without Russell. And thats not counting several people who were key players on title teams like Tiny, Dumars, and Ray Allen. At least 18 straight up led their teams to more success.

But they didnt get Bill Russell to ride for half a career.

If that's the case, everyone with Bill Rusell attached to their names is no good, right?

Sam Jones = no good, Russell ride
Tommy Heinsohn = no good, Russell ride
KC Jones = All aboard the Russell ride in college into the pros
Satch Sanders = yep, 1st class ride
Frank Ramsey = bus fair pass on Russell all the way to the Hall of Fame
Havlicek = yep him too, missed the playoffs after Russell retired
Bailey Howell, Andy Phillip = got rings with Russell after failed attempts with other teams

[Kblaze8855]

No good is not the same as not deserving to be ranked over people who led teams to titles while being factually superior to you. Which Wade did...and is.

Wade was the best player on better teams than Cousy and is flat out better at the game than Cousy.

Hondo did his thing in the 70s. He had Cowens...but you cant say he wasnt needed.

Cousy? Ican say with no doubt he was not needed for that team to be a dynasty...because he won nothing without russell and russell won 5 without him and claimed they had their best team ever due to defense without Cousy.

there is just no justification for Cousy to be as high as he is unless we pretend Russell didnt exist. Credit cousy for those rings..fine. Rank him over Wade despite Wade being better in reality.

Credit the man who deserves it...Cousy is not near the level voted.

You could literally put me in my current form on the Celtics and if only for being bigger than him, a better athlete, and willing to play defense id win rings. They won 5 rings...without him.

Im not crediting him for their success at all. I just cant justify it.

[Reggie43]

I kinda wonder why you wouldcall Reggie a better scorer than Ray. hes no a better shooter. Not a better shooter off the dribble. hes not approaching pre Celtics Ray as a slasher. Ray was banging on people often enough to stop being impressed by it. Reggie had an underrated post game but he only used it twice a week. And Ray did the same.

I think Reggie is a better scorer than his low ppg suggests...but not that much better. I think people assume he wasnt shooting more because he was just a nice guy or trying nto to press it or something...he just didnt get many good looks because he couldnt create seperation without screens.

Reggie over Ray as a scorer feels like a "Because I think he could have" thing. Not like he was even shooting epic percentages. Ray has put up 22+ a game on 48% shooting and 43% from 3 and 88 at the line. His numbers just drop due to the 3s. At one point he took over 8 3s a game and still shot 40+ percent.

I just dont see the case for Reggie over ray as a scorer by skills or anything else.

How about being a more efficient scorer on similar averages? Their career field goal percentage of 47% for Reg and 45% for Ray is a big enough difference especially if your comparing them as scorers. All the skills in the world doesnt mean anything if you cant do it effectively.

Try watching Miller in his younger days and you can see him putting the ball on the floor with a quick first step either going all the way to the rim or using very effective leaning/running jumper.

The problem with most posters here is that they only remember Reggie on his last days when he lost most of his athletic ability and relied on his experience and still deadly jumper to survive

[andgar923]

How about being a more efficient scorer on similar averages? Their career field goal percentage of 47% for Reg and 45% for Ray is a big enough difference especially if your comparing them as scorers. All the skills in the world doesnt mean anything if you cant do it effectively.

Try watching Miller in his younger days and you can see him putting the ball on the floor with a quick first step either going all the way to the rim or using very effective leaning/running jumper.

The problem with most posters here is that they only remember Reggie on his last days when he lost most of his athletic ability and relied on his experience and still deadly jumper to survive

I remember a while back I mentioned that Reggie was a better scorer than Bron.

I explained that he could score on you in multiple ways, all set up with his jumper. Most people think he only came off screens or hit shots after a guard kicked it out to him, but that's not true. He was great at getting a player off balance, sizing them up, beating them with jab steps, using screens, pump fakes etc.etc. some of the things that Bron can't do. Doesn't mean he's a better player or more dangerous, just a more balanced scorer who's abilities get overlooked.

[Kblaze8855]

Im from chicago. I watched young Reggie. Live. And on tv many times. This was back when you played within your division like 5 times. I watched Reggie get his 19 points in 44 minutes then lose many many many times. I didnt get the big deal then and I never did. Though starting around 2002 I did want to see him win a ring.

[magnax1]

I kinda wonder why you wouldcall Reggie a better scorer than Ray. hes no a better shooter. Not a better shooter off the dribble. hes not approaching pre Celtics Ray as a slasher. Ray was banging on people often enough to stop being impressed by it. Reggie had an underrated post game but he only used it twice a week. And Ray did the same.

I think Reggie is a better scorer than his low ppg suggests...but not that much better. I think people assume he wasnt shooting more because he was just a nice guy or trying nto to press it or something...he just didnt get many good looks because he couldnt create seperation without screens.

Reggie over Ray as a scorer feels like a "Because I think he could have" thing. Not like he was even shooting epic percentages. Ray has put up 22+ a game on 48% shooting and 43% from 3 and 88 at the line. His numbers just drop due to the 3s. At one point he took over 8 3s a game and still shot 40+ percent.

I just dont see the case for Reggie over ray as a scorer by skills or anything else.

It's not a "Because I think he could have" thing but more a "He consistently did in the playoffs" thing. He put up basically the same ppg #s over 10+ years as ray did over 4 years in the playoffs in his prime (not counting 08) You can say he isn't as skilled, or whatever you want, but it really doesn't mean anything when he put up better results.

[Kblaze8855]

Missed this...

How about being a more efficient scorer on similar averages? Their career field goal percentage of 47% for Reg and 45% for Ray is a big enough difference especially if your comparing them as scorers. All the skills in the world doesnt mean anything if you cant do it effectively.

Taking 13 shots a game limiting your shots to easy ones in the flow doesnt mean you are able to score more "effectively". It means you take 13 shots a game. And a good scorer should shoot well taking 13 shots a game. Ray has shot 48, 48, and 49% the last 3 years. In a time where guards dont shoot when they did when Reggie was shooting 50%(early 90s).

He didnt just get better. He shoots less. Reggie never had to carry his offense that much. He never had to shoot enough to drop his percentages. The year Reggie peaked in shots per minute(not total...he was playing less minutes than in the early 90s) he shot 44%. The Pacers didnt ride Reggie. They went through Smits more than reggie as I remember it he just didnt have numbers because he never played big minutes.

Most good guards shoot upper 40s if they play 35-40 minutes and pick their spots while the team is winning or close without them needing to score.

If a truly great scorer took the 13 shots a game Reggie took in his prime he might shoot 55%. Not taking as many 3s as Reggie took..but that was his game.

Im not blown away by shooting mid to upper 40s when you take so few shots. Not shooting enough to miss more doesnt make you a better shooter.

[Reggie43]

I remember a while back I mentioned that Reggie was a better scorer than Bron.

I explained that he could score on you in multiple ways, all set up with his jumper. Most people think he only came off screens or hit shots after a guard kicked it out to him, but that's not true. He was great at getting a player off balance, sizing them up, beating them with jab steps, using screens, pump fakes etc.etc. some of the things that Bron can't do. Doesn't mean he's a better player or more dangerous, just a more balanced scorer who's abilities get overlooked.

I wont say that, but it kind of makes sense. Same way that you might say Rik Smits is a better scorer than Shaq because he has many more ways to score.
Nice job on describing Reggie's game by the way

[Kblaze8855]

It's not a "Because I think he could have" thing but more a "He consistently did in the playoffs" thing. He put up basically the same ppg #s over 10+ years as ray did over 4 years in the playoffs in his prime (not counting 08) You can say he isn't as skilled, or whatever you want, but it really doesn't mean anything when he put up better results.

Putting up 27 a game in 44 minutes as your team gets swept sure helps a career playoff average.....doesnt mean it was getting results. Reggie scored 25 a game in one playoff run that wasnt a brief 3-5 games bumping up his averages. 1. In like 19 years.

Excuse me for not hitting the roof when a guy who did nothing but score had one somewhat high scoring post season in 2 decades.

Its almost like when people say "Dirk rebounds in the playoffs" ignoring that 98% of the basketball he plays isnt in the playoffs. Only Dirk wasnt doing it for 4 losing games to bump up how it looks on basketball reference 20 years later.

Reggie was always a guy who felt better than he was. He was such a major figure in the 90s. But he didnt really...do...anything.

Real stars get laughed at for doing what Reggies fans prop him up for(losing in the ECF...make the finals once in 2 decades and lose). Reggie had a great career for what he was. A third tier star.

Start comparing him to the real best players(as a top 25 list must) and he pales.

[magnax1]

Putting up 27 a game in 44 minutes as your team gets swept sure helps a career playoff average.....doesnt mean it was getting results. Reggie scored 25 a game in one playoff run that wasnt a brief 3-5 games bumping up his averages. 1. In like 19 years.

Excuse me for not hitting the roof when a guy who did nothing but score had one somewhat high scoring post season in 2 decades.

That's pretty much bullshit. He had 2 playoffs from 92-02 where he didn't score more then 23 ppg, and had 3 15+ game playoff runs where he averaged more then 23 ppg. It's not like he was having a bunch of short runs and a couple of them were really high scoring. He averaged something around 24 ppg over 100+ playoff games. You can't just wave that off as a statistical anomaly. That's just how good he was. I don't know how you can say he and Ray aren't comparable as scorers when he did that. Sure, Ray was a better scorer off the dribble, and got inside more, but it doesn't matter at all when he got the same results.
Also, are you going to start the top 25 forwards project?

[Dizzle-2k7]

Nash over Payton why?