Micheal Jordan Denial

[Knoe Itawl]

I'd like to think of MJ as not really better than any other superstar athletically but what he does is catch his teammates on fire.

I'd like to think of you as older than 9 but I can't.

[Phenomenon]

When a player who's actually better shows up, people will recognize it. End of discussion.

Yeah because guys like Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Magic Johnson or Wilt Chamberlain don't have a case.

Listen to this advice and take it to heart.
Michael Jordan is overrated by this generation of fans because he's the greatest basketball player in our generation, 3 or 4 other players can easily make a case of being better then him but we all ignore that aspect because we never really seen them play in their prime.

So we just assume he's the greatest, and it just seems so lop-sided because it's mostly this generation that's comparing him to everyone else. I'm positive a different perspective will be presented if say the Baby Boomer generation were posting on this forum, I think they would have a greater insight on who truly was the best player of all-time and I'm pretty sure it will not be so one-sided.

[Knoe Itawl]

Yeah because guys like Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Magic Johnson or Wilt Chamberlain don't have a case.

Listen to this advice and take it to heart.
Michael Jordan is overrated by this generation of fans because he's the greatest basketball player in our generation, 3 or 4 other players can easily make a case of being better then him but we all ignore that aspect because we never really seen them play in their prime.

So we just assume he's the greatest, and it just seems so lop-sided because it's mostly this generation that's comparing him to everyone else. I'm positive a different perspective will be presented if say the Baby Boomer generation were posting on this forum, I think they would have a greater insight on who truly was the best player of all-time and I'm pretty sure it will not be so one-sided.

Except a lot of players from PAST generations (Russell, West, etc.) call Jordan the greatest. Guess it's because they never saw themselves play in their prime.

Also, if you take a look at all of Michael's accomplishments with a non-biased type of way, you'd see that a case can be made that it's indeed lopsided.

[Manute for Ever!]

Jordan will most probably be outdone in his lifetime, but, when it is done, it will be like reinventing the wheel. That is what makes MJ so great, what he has done is completely unprecidented, everything from a SG/Sf from here on will always be compared to Jordan. He has set the standard to which greatness for the SG position is measured. Players may come along that play the same position, but they saw footage of Jordan and replicated it, who did Jordan see to do what he did? Jordan has said in the past that it was David Thompsom, He had his chance and blew it, therefore the blueprint will be Jordan for a long time to come.

[BIZARRO]

Oh, and by the way whenever you run into an idiot like Poseidon yapping about Michael and today's league, just past the below post by kblaze. that way you don't have to waste time on a simpleton.

Jordan in 02 got hurt around the all star break and because he didnt want to quit on the team played through much of it and only put up 16ppg and played just 28 minutes after the break. But before it....

25/6/5.3 and he was getting better. Working into shape. he month just before he got hurt he averaged a rounded off 27/7/5.

Kobe for the year put up a rounded up 25/6/6 and Jordan before he went down put up...25/6/5. jordan slightly up in blocks. Both with 1.48 steals. And Kobe played more minutes. Jordan was at 25/6/5 in under 35 minutes a game. Kobe has not played minutes that low since 1998. Kobe shot better from the field that year. But Jordan was not the Jordan of old. He was old Jordan. He was out there hesitating to dunk because he didnt want to miss.


This "era" **** has gotten totally out of control when people think Michael Jordan would fail to do anything these days. Wade just led a team to a title while being worse than Jordan at literally every single phase of the game. And thats something often said but rarely true. But Jordan in his prime was a better midrange, outside, and in the lane shooter, a better defender in the post and outside, a better passer, rebounder, and really...everything. Well I guess MJ didnt have Wades crossover but a crossover and ball handling arent the same thing. Jordan was better than Wade at getting where he wanted to be. And thats enough ball handling for me.

If Jordan 12-15 years removed from his physical peak in a stage of his life he had to be all skills and could barely even dunk could put up 25/6/5 in a league that had basically every current great player aside from Lebron and Wade how is an equally skilled but far more athletic Jordan going to fail to dominate?

Jordan had comp to equal anyones. Nobody in this league now that Kevin Willis is gone has even played a team the equal of the Showtime Lakers or Birds Celtics. Well no. is cliff still around in NJ? If so...no star has played them. None of these guards have had to beat Dumars and/or Rodman to go into the lane and get knock the **** out by Laimbeer and have them get away with it. Nobody today is going into the lane and running into centers like Hakeem/Drob/Mutombo in his prime/Zo/Ewing and so on.

And Jordan played when despite getting favored by the refs he couldnt get the calls Wade, AI, Bron, and Kobe do. The rules have changed in their favors. NBA allows a zone but teams dont really use it well and teams in the 80s used it too they just got away with it(unless they were playing Pat Riley who loved to point it out to refs when his own team wasnt using one).

You cant even handcheck a guy anymore. Much less all the **** Rodman, Moncrief, Jones, Gerald Wilkins, Starks, Dumars, nance, DJ, and such did to MJ. And the athletic difference between the best modern outside defenders and MJs isnt big. The best man to man defender now is probably Bruce Bowen who is hardly an athletic freak. Hes just determined, with good fundamentals, and allowed to play alllllllmost like 90s defenders could. So there is prince. There was Bobby Jones, Gerald Wilklins, Spider Smith(with his 7'6'' wingspan) and Larry Nance who guarded everyone from 2-5. Nance athletically may have no current better of his build. Closest would be Josh Smith. Nance wasl ike 6'10'' both fast and quick(difference) with hops like few ive ever seen.

There are tough bigmen like Ben Wallace now. No current center is either as athletic or skilled on D as Hakeem and Drob were. Or Ewing for that matter if you use pre injury Ewing. Which bigmen now are better disrupting an offense than Zo was? Or Mutombo?

How many pointguards now are better defenders than Gary Payton was? Or Alvin Robertson? Or Derek Harper? How many swingmen are better defenders than Pippen, Jordan, Rodman(who was a swingman type early and the best 3/4 defender later), Cooper Moncrief, and so on? How many 4s are better defenders than Oakley, Williams, and Mccray? I can think of 2. And Jordan played both.

Is this all D team:

Ben
Bowen
AK
Artest
Kidd
Kobe(they had 6 last year with a tie)

really better than this one from 10 years ago?

Payton
Jordan
Pippen
Rodman
Drob

?

And its not like Jordan played all old guys who dont play now. Or bad comp period. He played Duncan, Shaq, Dirk, Tmac, AI, Kidd, Pierce, Webber, KG and all them. In fact he played 9 of the 11 people currently on the all D team. And 11 of the 15 all NBA players. Not to mention Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Zo, Ewing, Isiah, Drexler, Malone, Stockton, Barkley, Kareem, Mchale, Nique, Grant Hill, Penny, Tim Hardaway, Mitch Richmond, Kemp, LJ, Mullin, KJ, Reggie Miller and more.

Jordan isnt one of those "era" guys. Even if someone thought he was the fact that he played against every great player to enter the NBA in the last 22 years aside from Lebron and Wade should kill that idea. And if anyone still wasnt convinced seeing a 38-39 yearold Jordan on bad knees robbed of his athletic ability and playing just 35 minutes put up 25/6/5 in 2002 should have left no doubt.

Michael Jordan in any setting is Michael Jordan. If he played and dominated any and everyone in his path in a prime including some of the greatest defenders and scorers in basketball history I doubt hed crumble in the face of the mighty shutdown D of Tayshaun Prince and Ron Artest or the amazing offensive talents of Wade and Lebron.

Michael Jordan in his prime dominated the 80s and 90s. MJ after his prime was among the best in the 2000s when healthy. You could drop MJ in his prime into the 2255 NBA and watch him put up 32/6/6 vs 7'3'' shooting guards with Dirk range and KG athletic ability.

Hes Michael Jordan. End of story.

TREMENDOUS.

[BIZARRO]

Jordan will most probably be outdone in his lifetime, but, when it is done, it will be like reinventing the wheel. That is what makes MJ so great, what he has done is completely unprecidented, everything from a SG/Sf from here on will always be compared to Jordan. He has set the standard to which greatness for the SG position is measured. Players may come along that play the same position, but they saw footage of Jordan and replicated it, who did Jordan see to do what he did? Jordan has said in the past that it was David Thompsom, He had his chance and blew it, therefore the blueprint will be Jordan for a long time to come.

Yes, when I think about it I find it hard to see anyone surpassing MJ for a LOOOOOONNNNNG time. I mean, he is that far above anything I've ever seen.

I mean (and I know I am in the minority), Kobe came closer as an individual force than anyone would care to admit. But even he was still not that close.

I could be wrong and the second coming of someone who is going to be beterr than MJ could be announced tomorrow, I just don't see it happening for dozens of years if I was to predict.

[kgisbigticket]

Yeah because guys like Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Magic Johnson or Wilt Chamberlain don't have a case.

Listen to this advice and take it to heart.
Michael Jordan is overrated by this generation of fans because he's the greatest basketball player in our generation, 3 or 4 other players can easily make a case of being better then him but we all ignore that aspect because we never really seen them play in their prime.

So we just assume he's the greatest, and it just seems so lop-sided because it's mostly this generation that's comparing him to everyone else. I'm positive a different perspective will be presented if say the Baby Boomer generation were posting on this forum, I think they would have a greater insight on who truly was the best player of all-time and I'm pretty sure it will not be so one-sided.

Well all of these guys lost series when the favorite.

[quote]Wilt Chamberlain (lost in

[kgisbigticket]

Jordan will most probably be outdone in his lifetime, but, when it is done, it will be like reinventing the wheel. That is what makes MJ so great, what he has done is completely unprecidented, everything from a SG/Sf from here on will always be compared to Jordan. He has set the standard to which greatness for the SG position is measured. Players may come along that play the same position, but they saw footage of Jordan and replicated it, who did Jordan see to do what he did? Jordan has said in the past that it was David Thompsom, He had his chance and blew it, therefore the blueprint will be Jordan for a long time to come.

Do you actually see someone else getting 6 Finals MVP's and 5 League MVP's? Or getting 10 scoring titles, having the highest PER average or averaging 30+ ppg in the season, playoffs and finals?

I sure don't see it.

[Kebab Stall]

That post from Kblaze and the other from that poster from another forum were a damn good read. Those posts just go to show how amazing Jordan was. People like to compare players to Jordan all the time, but in my eyes I don't think they should ever be compared to Jordan unless they are perfect, or near perfect (obviously I know he wasn't perfect, but he was sure as close), at damn near every aspect of the game.

Not to mention Jordan's will and determination. The mentality of never backing down from a challenge, always wanting to be the best no matter how much blood, sweat and tears it took, or how much energy it drained from his body. Jordan wanted to be the best and to me he certainly accomlished it. Will we we ever see another player with that kind of mentality, will and determination, I doubt it, which is a damn shame.

[Knoe Itawl]

Yes, when I think about it I find it hard to see anyone surpassing MJ for a LOOOOOONNNNNG time. I mean, he is that far above anything I've ever seen.

I mean (and I know I am in the minority), Kobe came closer as an individual force than anyone would care to admit. But even he was still not that close.

I could be wrong and the second coming of someone who is going to be beterr than MJ could be announced tomorrow, I just don't see it happening for dozens of years if I was to predict.

Kobe's come close as a regular season scorer at times, but please tell me how his post season exploits come anywhere near Jordan? Don't fall in the trap of seeing Kobe's 81 or 50 point streaks and pretending that's "close" to Jordan. Because when you look at the overall picture, there's just no comparison. Also, are you saying Bron's come closest to Jordan too because there are a lot of people calling Bron the best player in the league currently. So if he's better than Kobe, does that mean he's getting close to Jordan too?

The playoffs is where the competition is greater, the pressure is greater and where NBA legends are made. Put Kobe's playoff career next to Jordan's and you'll quickly see that there is NO comparison.

Also, when you say "close" are you talking about as a scorer, or as a player? Because you realize that there are other all time players that are better than Kobe, right?

[clayton]

I kinda agree with the "right time right place".

Who knows what will happen if our current SG Stars get a chance to play back 15 years ago, surrounded by a supporting cast such as the Bulls with modernized atheletic move sets.

[Manute for Ever!]

Do you actually see someone else getting 6 Finals MVP's and 5 League MVP's? Or getting 10 scoring titles, having the highest PER average or averaging 30+ ppg in the season, playoffs and finals?

I sure don't see it.

My point led more towards the whole "Records Are Meant to be Broken" mentallity. Stats aside, I agree whole-heartedly with you. But, "if" (and by "if", I mean "when", it is inevitable) someone comes along in the watered down recesses of what we know as the NBA, they will have learned from the greatest. They will not have faced the adversities of the greatest. No SG has done what Jordan did when he did it, dillution of talent, lack of successful SG's in NBA history prior to MJ, personal adversity, and other factors (lesser influence on the college game, for example) will keep Jordans legacy at the forefront of NBA conciousness. If you want to take it to a marketing level (which I don't), has the NBA ever had a more marketable star? Jordan represents everything that has ever been right with the League.

[kgisbigticket]

Kobe's come close as a regular season scorer at times, but please tell me how his post season exploits come anywhere near Jordan? Don't fall in the trap of seeing Kobe's 81 or 50 point streaks and pretending that's "close" to Jordan. Because when you look at the overall picture, there's just no comparison. Also, are you saying Bron's come closest to Jordan too because there are a lot of people calling Bron the best player in the league currently. So if he's better than Kobe, does that mean he's getting close to Jordan too?

The playoffs is where the competition is greater, the pressure is greater and where NBA legends are made. Put Kobe's playoff career next to Jordan's and you'll quickly see that there is NO comparison.

Also, when you say "close" are you talking about as a scorer, or as a player? Because you realize that there are other all time players that are better than Kobe, right?

Here are the playoff top games.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...vidual_points/

Top Playoff Single-Game Scoring Performances
Player Team Opponent Total Date
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986
Elgin Baylor L.A. Lakers at Boston 61 April 14, 1962
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 56 March 22, 1962
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992
Charles Barkley Phoenix at Golden State 56 May 4, 1994
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997
John Havlicek Boston Atlanta 54 April 1, 1973
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 54 May 9, 2001
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 53 March 14, 1960
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Boston 53 April 23, 1969
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Baltimore 52 April 5, 1965
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 52 May 16, 2001
Sam Jones Boston at New York 51 March 28, 1967
Eric Floyd Golden State L.A. Lakers 51 May 10, 1987
Bob Cousy Boston Syracuse 50* March 21, 1953
Bob Petit St. Louis Boston 50 April 12, 1958
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia at Boston 50 March 22, 1950
Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco St. Louis 50 April 10, 1964
Billy Cunningham Philadelphia Milwaukee 50 April 1, 1970
Bob McAdoo Buffalo Washington 50 April 18, 1975
Dominique Wilkins Atlanta Detroit 50 April 19, 1986
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989
Karl Malone Utah Seattle 50 April 22, 2000
Vince Carter Toronto Philadelphia 50 May 11, 2001
*4 overtimes
^overtime

This is courtesy of NBA on NBC here:

NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1946-47 - 37 Joe Fulks, PHW vs CHI at PHW 16Apr47
1947-48 - 34 Connie Simmons, BLT vs NYK at BLT 27Mar48
1948-49 - 42 George Mikan, MPL vs WSC 4Apr49 @ MPL
1949-50 - 40 George Mikan, MPL vs SYR at MPL 23Apr50
1950-51 - 41 George Mikan, MPL vs IDS at MPL 21Mar51
1951-52 - 47 George Mikan, MPL at ROC 29Mar52
1952-53 - 50 Bob Cousy, BOS vs SYR at BOS 21Mar53
1953-54 - 36 Dolph Schayes, SYR at NYK 21Mar54
1954-55 - 32 Bill Sharman, BOS at SYR 24Mar55
1955-56 - 43 Neil Johnson, PHW at SYR 25Mar56
1956-57 - 42 Bob Leonard, MPL vs STL at MPL 25Mar57
1957-58 - 50 Bob Pettit, STL vs BOS at STL 12Apr58
1958-59 - 40 Cliff Hagan, STL vs MPL at STL 21Mar59
1959-60 - 53 Wilt Chamberlain, PHW vs SYR at PHW 14Mar60
1960-61 - 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at DET 18Mar61
............... 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at STL 27Mar61
1961-62 - 61 Elgin Baylor, LAL at BOS 14Apr62
1962-63 - 47 Sam Jones, BOS vs CIN at BOS 10Apr63
1963-64 - 50 Wilt Chamberlain, SFW vs STL at SFW 10Apr64
1964-65 - 52 Jerry West, LAL vs BAL at LAL 3Apr65
1965-66 - 46 Wilt Chamberlain, PHI vs BOS at PHI 12Apr66
1966-67 - 55 Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI at SFW 18Apr67
1967-68 - 46 Zelmo Beaty, STL vs SFW 23Mar68 @ STL
1968-69 - 53 Jerry West, LAL vs BOS at LAL 23Apr69
1969-70 - 50 Billy Cunningham, PHI vs MIL at PHI 1Apr70
1970-71 - 39 Gail Goodrich, LAL at CHI 28Mar71
1971-72 - 43 John Havlicek BOS at ATL 31Mar72
1972-73 - 54 John Havlicek, BOS vs ATL at BOS 1Apr73
1973-74 - 44 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs BOS 6Apr74 at BUF
............... 44 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, MIL at CHI 18Apr74
1974-75 - 50 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs WAS at BUF 18Apr75
1975-76 - 45 Fred Brown, SEA vs PHO at SEA 15Apr76
1976-77 - 45 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LAL vs GSW at LAL 29Apr77
1977-78 - 46 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 18Apr78
1978-79 - 42 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 11May79
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at WAS 18May79
1979-80 - 44 George Gervin, SAN vs HOU at SAN 4Apr80
1980-81 - 42 Calvin Murphy, HOU at SAN 17Apr81
............... 42 Moses Malone, HOU vs KCK at HOU 26Apr81
1981-82 - 39 George Gervin, SAN vs LAL at SAN 14May82
............... 39 Andrew Toney, PHI vs BOS at PHI 16May82
1982-83 - 42 Alex English, DEN vs PHO at PHO 24Apr83
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at DEN 26Apr83
1983-84 - 46 Bernard King, NYK at DET 19Apr84
............... 46 Bernard King, NYK vs DET at NYK 22Apr84
1984-85 - 43 Rolando Blackman, DAL vs POR at DAL 18Apr85
............... 43 Larry Bird, BOS vs DET at BOS 8May85
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS 20Apr86
1986-87 - 51 Sleepy Floyd, GSW vs LAL at GSW 10May87
1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 1May88
1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 5May89
1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 11May90
1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 10May91
1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA 29Apr92
1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI 16Jun93
1993-94 - 56 Charles Barkley, PHO at GSW 4May94
1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA 28Apr95
1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK 11May96
1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI 27Apr97
1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA 14Jun98
1998-99 - 37 Tim Duncan, SAN at LAL 22May99
............... 37 Scottie Pippen, HOU vs LAL at HOU 13May99
............... 37 Shaquille O'Neal, LAL vs HOU at HOU 15May99
............... 37 Allen Iverson, PHI vs ORL at PHI 15May99
1999-00 - 50 Karl Malone, UTA vs SEA at UTA 22Apr00
-----
ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2
Michael Jordan, CHI vs MIA, 1992..... 45.0

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES/NBA FINALS
Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO, 1993..... 41.0
Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI, 1965..... 40.8
Elgin Baylor, LAL vs BOS, 1962..... 40.6


Also MJ has 6 playoffs series where he averaged at least 40 ppg.

Also MJ has a 33.4 ppg in the playoffs. Kobe has never even in one playoff year averaged what MJ's average was.

[iamgine]

I'd like to think of you as older than 9 but I can't.

ask yo mama then when she get back.



Physically, MJ is just as good as the next superstar, nothing very special. What he can do, Lebron or Kobe can do.

It's his mentality and charisma that sets him apart. He spread the winning attitude amongst his teammates. I doubt his teammates would be as good as they were without him in the picture. People keep saying he has great teammates, that's why he won so much championship. Well, I think his teammates are great largely because of him.

Sadly, I don't think the next next generation will acknowledge Jordan as #1.

[Optimus Prime]

I hate to do it, but I have to totally agree with Knoe here. All these fools saying that MJ would just be "another swingman today" are literally retarded.

Who do you think raised the standards so high that the things MJ did back in the 90s are common place today? Oh, that's right, Michael Jordan.

Now people are using the "he played against old, athletic guys and sorry competition" against Michael Jordan? Really? Wow.

Just...wow.