LeBron's 2007 ECF "help" versus MJ's first round losses "help"

[Roundball_Rock]

1985

In this series the 38-44 GOAT lost 3-1 to a team led by NBA legends Terry Cummings and Sidney Moncrief. What "help" did MJ get from his teammates, though?

MJ shot 43.6% but posted 29/6/9 while taking nearly half of the Bull's free throws. His "second option" scored 21 points per game on 50% and his "third option" averaged 15 a game.

1986

In 1986 the GOAT played in only 18 regular season games (the Bulls went 9-9) and the Bulls made the playoffs at 30-52. They draw the legendary 86' Celtics and promptly were swept.

MJ averaged 44/6/6 on 32 FGA and 13 FTA per game. His "second option" scored 21 ppg again while Charles Oakley contributed 10/10 on 55% and Dave Corzine 12/9 on 52%.

1987

MJ had his best statistical year (37/5/5) and led the Bulls to 40-42, again drawing the Celtics in the first round. The Celtics swept them again. MJ had 36/7/6 on 41.7% and 28 FGA and 13 FTA. Charles Oakley chipped in 20/15. "His" third scorer averaged 10 on 55%.

Recap

*MJ had a 20+ ppg second option every year.
*MJ had a 20/15 performance from a future all-star in one series.
*His third options did decent on limited shots.

To be fair, his teams were inferior in each case. After all, that is how seeding works: the better teams get the higher seeds so it is important to not go 38-44 or 40-42. Still, is the "help" MJ had any worse than, say:

*Your #2 option being hurt and averaging only 7/3/2.
*Having a #3 option who averaged 13.5/3/1.
*Having a #4 option who averaged 13/9.

Those figures are from when LeBron led the Cavs past the Pistons to reach the NBA Finals at age 22.

Thoughts on why LeBron did more with less help? I raise this because MJ fans have repeatedly insisted that MJ on the 07' Cavs would reach the Finals--even though the real life MJ was struggling to even get out the first round with similar rosters.

[SamuraiSWISH]

MJ had comparable help, probably worse in '89, yet dragged the Bulls to ECF. In a better Eastern Conference Gave the eventual champs, the '89 Bad Boy Pistons their only 2x losses of the post season, due to brillaint performances. How does one call themselves a Bulls fan, yet is consistently trying to discredit their franchise's best player. Makes no sense.

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ had comparable help in '89, dragged the Bulls to ECF. Gave the eventual champs their only 2x losses of the post season, due to brillaint performances.

He quit in Game 5 with the series tied 2-2...

His roster in 89' was the same core roster that would win three straight titles and then win 55 games without him the year after that. So this core (Pippen, Grant, Cartwright) won 55+ for five consecutive years.

[GeeWiz]

Whats with the constant need to elevate LeBron above Jordan on this forum? I just don't get it.

[SamuraiSWISH]

He quit in Game 5 with the series tied 2-2...

Umm, Collins wanted MJ to be a decoy, and play distrubtor that game. After he scored 46 in game 3, that was the plan. Elevate his under performing teammates confidence.

He ended up scoring 18 points, shot 50% and dished out 9 assists. How is that quitting?

He didn't go full LeBron, in the middle of winnable series, stand on the perimeter and look visibly disinterested causing the Bulls to lose. When they were considered FAVORITES in the series. Like LeBron's Cavs. Which I assume is why you threw the word "quit" out there, in order to relieve LeBron of criticism, and attempt to diminish Jordan.

So let me get this straight. You're a self proclaimed Bulls fan, yet purposely try to throw shade, and diminish not just your franchise's greatest player. But the game's all-time greatest player?

Right.

[Calabis]

So did you watch the series(Bucks), or did you just decide to look at the stats and come up with this theory?

[Kblaze8855]

Umm, Collins wanted MJ to be a decoy, and play distrubtor that game. After he scored 46 in game 3, that was the plan. Elevate his under performing teammates confidence.

You actually remember that game and the requlting backlash? Serious question.

[SamuraiSWISH]

So did you watch the series, or did you just decide to look at the stats and come up with this theory?

He's making the claim that the '94 Bulls, w/ Pippen / Grant / Cartwirght were essentially the same claiber players as they were in 1989.

Oh, and has KBlaze another "Bulls fan" who only knows my posting habits, but not Roundball_Rock's Jordan hating agenda agreeing with him.

Some articles insinuated MJ quit in that game 5. It was an idea tossed around. But it wasn't a for definite mid series QUIT job in winnable series, for multiple games like we saw from LeBron in consecutive season in 2010,a nd 2011.

Lets see, 1989:

Jordan: 35 ppg, 7 rpg, 8 apg on 51%

Grant: 11 ppg, 10 rpg, 2 apg on 52%
Pippen: 13 ppg, 8 rpg, 4 apg on 46%
Cartwight: 12 ppg, 7 rpg, 1 apg on 49%

1994:

Grant: 16 ppg, 7 rpg, 3 apg on 54%
Pippen: 23 ppg, 8 rpg, 5 apg on 43%
Cartwright: 5 ppg, 5 rpg, 1 apg on 33%

For good measure. Rusty baseball MJ who had to save Chicago's .500 season in 1995. His playoff numbers:

32 ppg, 7 rpg, 5 apg on 48%

Pippen?

18 ppg, 9 rpg, 6 apg on 44%

See? Exactly the same team in '89, as 1994. It's not like that core around Jordan got better, or more experienced. I mean my god, it's such an accomplishment to win 55 games, then get bounced in second round.

MJ comes back in proper shape, set record for most wins in season. 72 games. A 2nd three peat. 2x MVPs.

[Calabis]

You actually remember that game and the requlting backlash? Serious question.

I could be wrong, but I believe that was the game in which Jordan actually was running a lot of the point and it appeared to be the game plan to try to get other players going. I may be wrong, but I remember one of those Piston series where they tried that shit.

[Kblaze8855]

He's making the claim that the '94 Bulls, w/ Pippen / Grant / Cartwirght were essentially the same claiber players as they were in 1989.

Oh, and has KBlaze another "Bulls fan" who only knows my posting habits, but not Roundball_Rock's Jordan hating agenda agreeing with him.

I would literally bet my life and the lives of my loved ones you couldnt find anything in 13 years to suggest I think that....even in jest. Not that I think you base the things you say on reality....its just a pretty startling thing to read.

[Calabis]

He's making the claim that the '94 Bulls, w/ Pippen / Grant / Cartwirght were essentially the same claiber players as they were in 1989.

Oh, and has KBlaze another "Bulls fan" who only knows my posting habits, but not Roundball_Rock's Jordan hating agenda agreeing with him.

Some articles insinuated MJ quit in that game 5. It was an idea tossed around. But it wasn't a for definite mid series QUIT job in winnable series, for multiple games like we saw from LeBron in consecutive season in 2010,a nd 2011.

Lets see, 1989:

Jordan: 35 ppg, 7 rpg, 8 apg on 51%

Grant: 11 ppg, 10 rpg, 2 apg on 52%
Pippen: 13 ppg, 8 rpg, 4 apg on 46%
Cartwight: 12 ppg, 7 rpg, 1 apg on 49%

1994:

Grant: 16 ppg, 7 rpg, 3 apg on 54%
Pippen: 23 ppg, 8 rpg, 5 apg on 43%
Cartwright: 5 ppg, 5 rpg, 1 apg on 33%

For good measure. Rusty baseball MJ who had to save Chicago's .500 season in 1995. His playoff numbers:

32 ppg, 7 rpg, 5 apg on 48%

Pippen?

18 ppg, 9 rpg, 6 apg on 44%

See? Exactly the same team in '89, as 1994. It's not like that core around Jordan got better, or more experienced. I mean my god, it's such an accomplishment to win 55 games, then get bounced in second round.

MJ comes back in proper shape, set record for most wins in season. 72 games. A 2nd three peat. 2x MVPs.

Well I asked him about the Bucks series...I like how he just posts the third option at 15 ppg. But then doesn't look at the stats in context. He fails to mention Pressey and Pierce on the Bucks team(Ask a real Bucks fan about those teams). The series is hazy at this time, but I remember Pressey having a couple of huge games for the Bucks. I'll have to check when I get home on computer.

[Ne 1]

LeBron faced far inferior competition and let's not forget the Cavs were an elite defensive and rebounding team, a good recipe for successes in the 00s Eastern Conference as we seen Iverson, Kidd and Dwight make it to the Finals with a cast that didn't look that great on paper either.
Recap of the ECF:
Game 3: James carried the load with 32/9/9, but a big key was also Cleveland's defense holding Detroit to 82 points, funny how people often ignore that and act like basketball is just one side of the basketball, defense is half of the game after all. So with Cleveland's defense doing such a great job, LeBron didn't need that much offensive support, having 3 teammates in double figures(Z- 16, Pavlovic- 13, Gooden- 12) was more than enough.

Game 4: LeBron had 25/7/11, but again, Cleveland held Detroit to just 87 points and Daniel Gibson scored 21 points on great efficiency(4/7 from the field, 12/12 from the line) and Gooden also had 19/8.

Game 5: This is about as close as a player can come to winning a game by himself, we all know about Lebron's 48/9/7 game.

Game 6: Lebron had 20/14/8, though his efficiency was poor (3/11 FG, 14/19 FT), but again Cleveland's defense shut down Detroit. The Pistons scored just 82 points and Daniel Gibson led all scorers with 31 points on amazing efficiency (7/9 FG, 5/5 3P, 12/15 FT).

[nathanjizzle]

whats the point of this thread, to say that lebron is better than mj?

dont make me laugh.

[sdot_thadon]

[QUOTE=Sam Smith]The power struggle between Jordan and Collins was never more evident than in the 1990 playoffs against Detroit. In the fifth game of the conference finals, Jordan attempted just 8 shots; the Bulls lost, and were eliminated at home in the next game. Questions flew at Jordan and Collins after the game, only to be met by the standard response about double-teaming tactics. But Collins and Jordan knew otherwise. The coach had told Jordan he was shooting too much; he had taken 31 percent of the team

[Solefade]

whats the point of this thread, to say that lebron is better than mj?

dont make me laugh.

it's not to say LBJ is better than MJ retard, but people criticize lebron all the time for the same things that MJ did but got a pass for

OP is stating facts in detail