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Old 04-26-2017, 01:02 PM   #1531
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Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs 1st Round GT: (3) Houston Rockets vs (6) Oklahoma City Thunder

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImKobe
Well I've seen this situation before with Kobe when he got all the blame for losing to the Suns as a 7 seed in 2006..all he needed was to replace Smush with D Fish and Kwame with Pau and he was going to 3 straight Finals...but before that all you heard was how it's his fault and how hero ball doesn't win..

Westbrook is nowhere near Kobe's league.

Enough with the meltdowns bro, just move on to your next bandwagon superstar. Sorry you believed in the fake news meme about "triple doubles" and Oscar Robertson.
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Old 04-26-2017, 01:09 PM   #1532
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Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs 1st Round GT: (3) Houston Rockets vs (6) Oklahoma City Thunder

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Originally Posted by ImKobe
Well I've seen this situation before with Kobe when he got all the blame for losing to the Suns as a 7 seed in 2006..all he needed was to replace Smush with D Fish and Kwame with Pau and he was going to 3 straight Finals...but before that all you heard was how it's his fault and how hero ball doesn't win..

way to dress it up there

they also got Odom, Bynum and some guy named PJ
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Old 04-26-2017, 01:13 PM   #1533
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Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs 1st Round GT: (3) Houston Rockets vs (6) Oklahoma City Thunder

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Originally Posted by ImKobe
Really?

I've argued for Curry because he put up historic numbers and won games in 30 minutes of playing time, like you can't say a player is not MVP when he plays roughly 30 minutes a night and puts up 30 almost exclusively from 3 and on better TS% than anyone else in the league, that's video game efficiency.

In WB's case he had both the efficiency and the raw averages in the RS, he had a much higher usage rating than Harden and played way more possessions but Harden was the one breaking the turnover record, Harden averaged 1 more assist per game with the best 3pt shooting team in the league, Russ averaged 10+ assists a night with no consistent 3pt shooting on top of 32 points a game and 10 rebounds, 33/11/11 post-ASB

Harden post-ASB averaged 29/8/11 with more turnovers and with worse shooting #s and the same +/- despite a much better team.

Harden had the MVP at about the half way mark of the season but Westbrook really turned it up and took it to a whole nother level.


we're talking Curry's 2015 MVP - u argued for Curry being over Harden when Harden was in WB's shoes back then with the team he had and stats alongside it, yet Curry got the nod for having the superior team etc etc etc. Harden was the true MVP then, player response made it solidified, and same goes for this year, he's the true MVP.

you move the goalposts to fit your agenda - simply put
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Old 04-26-2017, 02:00 PM   #1534
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Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs 1st Round GT: (3) Houston Rockets vs (6) Oklahoma City Thunder

Yea, Harden should've been MVP in 2015.

Shifting set of circumstances for the award has screwed him out of one twice now.

Same thing happened to Kobe. Based on best player on best team success, with marginal difference in teammate quality, like the Nash / Curry MVP, Kobe should've had one in 2009 as well.

Based on most valuable to team, take him away and the squad is even more garbage ... like this year's Westbrick MVP, he should've won over Nash and Dirk in 2006 and 2007.

Harden and Kobe got hosed by circumstances and shifting expectations or meaning to the award.
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Old 04-26-2017, 02:39 PM   #1535
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Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs 1st Round GT: (3) Houston Rockets vs (6) Oklahoma City Thunder

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Originally Posted by SamuraiSWISH
Yea, Harden should've been MVP in 2015.

Shifting set of circumstances for the award has screwed him out of one twice now.

Same thing happened to Kobe. Based on best player on best team success, with marginal difference in teammate quality, like the Nash / Curry MVP, Kobe should've had one in 2009 as well.

Based on most valuable to team, take him away and the squad is even more garbage ... like this year's Westbrick MVP, he should've won over Nash and Dirk in 2006 and 2007.

Harden and Kobe got hosed by circumstances and shifting expectations or meaning to the award.
I agree with everything except 2009.

Lebron put up the best numbers on the best team, and I believe led the league in 4th quarter scoring. So he was putting the team on his back and winning 66 in the process.

If you want to argue for Kobe and Wade purely as individual players it's closer, but there's a reason Lebron won in a landslide.

There's no way Kobe got hosed that year.
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Old 04-26-2017, 03:16 PM   #1536
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Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs 1st Round GT: (3) Houston Rockets vs (6) Oklahoma City Thunder

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Originally Posted by ImKobe
How do you realize your shot is not going in? He gets wide open 3s most of the night he's a pro NBA player who shot 34% in the RS on these shots which is far more reliable than Roberson or Oladipo's 3pt shooting, what about the wide open 3s he continuously sets up for his teammates?

Ok he was 5/18 from 3, his teammates were 5/20 on wide open 3s

Nothing wrong with him shooting those shots, he's been developing that part of the game and he's gotten better, as long as he has the confidence and he shoots them with proper form it's not a problem, at least 3 of those misses rimmed out, sometimes you don't get lucky.

There is something wrong with him shooting those threes in the 4th quarter and you have to throw his 5/18 compared to his team's 5/20 out the window, because it was obvious he was fatigued and his legs were fatigued.. once that happens the percentage of making jacked up 3's goes down drastically.. the Rockets weren't even really guarding him at that point.. they played off of him to collect the rebounds.

He should've recognized this and kept driving to the basket like Harden was doing and create for others. All those jacked up 3's were just empty possessions at that point in the game. He's damn near unstoppable driving to the basketball..that's his game, he shouldn't of abandoned it. That's what cost them the game.
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Old 04-26-2017, 03:29 PM   #1537
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Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs 1st Round GT: (3) Houston Rockets vs (6) Oklahoma City Thunder

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Originally Posted by r15mohd
way to dress it up there

they also got Odom, Bynum and some guy named PJ

He had Odom and Bynum before, those guys remained on the roster...and Bynum was mostly injured, especially in the 08 Playoffs along with Ariza when Lakers made it there.

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Originally Posted by TMac&Luther
There is something wrong with him shooting those threes in the 4th quarter and you have to throw his 5/18 compared to his team's 5/20 out the window, because it was obvious he was fatigued and his legs were fatigued.. once that happens the percentage of making jacked up 3's goes down drastically.. the Rockets weren't even really guarding him at that point.. they played off of him to collect the rebounds.

He should've recognized this and kept driving to the basket like Harden was doing and create for others. All those jacked up 3's were just empty possessions at that point in the game. He's damn near unstoppable driving to the basketball..that's his game, he shouldn't of abandoned it. That's what cost them the game.

Well if his legs are dead, how do you expect him to keep driving it inside? Doesn't that take more toll on your body than shooting an open 3? He's a good shooter and Houston gambled on those shots not going in..either way if I'm OKC I'll take the open 3 for Russ because he was hot from 3 early in the game and I rather have him shoot the open 3 than Roberson or Oladipo.

Last edited by ImKobe : 04-26-2017 at 03:33 PM.
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Old 04-26-2017, 03:44 PM   #1538
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Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs 1st Round GT: (3) Houston Rockets vs (6) Oklahoma City Thunder

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Originally Posted by r15mohd
we're talking Curry's 2015 MVP - u argued for Curry being over Harden when Harden was in WB's shoes back then with the team he had and stats alongside it, yet Curry got the nod for having the superior team etc etc etc. Harden was the true MVP then, player response made it solidified, and same goes for this year, he's the true MVP.

you move the goalposts to fit your agenda - simply put

Oh really, was Harden doing more on a worse team?

Curry averaged 24/4/8 on 49/44/91 shooting, led his team in pts, assists and steals, shot higher from 3 than Harden did overall from the field, broke the 3pt record and his team won 11 more games than Houston, Curry was almost better in every single metric that season..unless you think 27/6/7 on worse efficiency is better than what Curry did.

It's not the same thing, WB this season is putting up better numbers in almost every single statistic on a worse team and played better than Harden H2H - complete opposite of the Curry and Harden situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terahite
Westbrook is nowhere near Kobe's league.

Enough with the meltdowns bro, just move on to your next bandwagon superstar. Sorry you believed in the fake news meme about "triple doubles" and Oscar Robertson.

Actually, he is. And how is it bandwagoning when I've talked about him for years and criticized him for the 2012 Finals and how they blew a 3 - 1 series lead last year...I don't care about the triple double stat I only cared about his impact on a team that resembles the 06-07 Lakers and I have an issue with Houston homers who can't give Russ his props despite the Thunder outscoring the Rockets with him on the floor in the last 4 games.
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Old 04-26-2017, 03:45 PM   #1539
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Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs 1st Round GT: (3) Houston Rockets vs (6) Oklahoma City Thunder

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Originally Posted by ImKobe
He had Odom and Bynum before, those guys remained on the roster...and Bynum was mostly injured, especially in the 08 Playoffs along with Ariza when Lakers made it there.



Well if his legs are dead, how do you expect him to keep driving it inside? Doesn't that take more toll on your body than shooting an open 3? He's a good shooter and Houston gambled on those shots not going in..either way if I'm OKC I'll take the open 3 for Russ because he was hot from 3 early in the game and I rather have him shoot the open 3 than Roberson or Oladipo.

Except he's not a good shooter (His midrange shot isn't bad, that would've been a better shot, He's not Steph Curry)..can he get hot. Yes, but he'll get just as cold, especially in the 4th when he's exhausted. Atleast if he drives he can get to the line or draw the defense in and kick it out. Those 3 pointers weren't falling.
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Old 04-26-2017, 03:51 PM   #1540
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Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs 1st Round GT: (3) Houston Rockets vs (6) Oklahoma City Thunder

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Originally Posted by TMac&Luther
Except he's not a good shooter (His midrange shot isn't bad, that would've been a better shot, He's not Steph Curry)..can he get hot. Yes, but he'll get just as cold, especially in the 4th when he's exhausted. Atleast if he drives he can get to the line or draw the defense in and kick it out. Those 3 pointers weren't falling.

Do you consider Harden a good 3pt shooter? They shot almost an identical percentage from 3 this season on similar volume... you wouldn't think a wide open 3 would be a bad shot for Harden... it's easy to blame someone after he missed the shot but you have to take the wide open 3.

I would agree with the other part of your post if OKC didn't have the worst 3pt shooting team in the league, honestly I just don't see any other option because the defense collapses on him when he drives, the open 3 that they gave him was a good look considering all things, refs aren't blatantly going to call every drive and you've seen the TOs, Houston was smart to bank on Russ missing the 3 because there was no other way of stopping him.
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Old 04-26-2017, 04:14 PM   #1541
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Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs 1st Round GT: (3) Houston Rockets vs (6) Oklahoma City Thunder

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Originally Posted by ImKobe
Oh really, was Harden doing more on a worse team?

Curry averaged 24/4/8 on 49/44/91 shooting, led his team in pts, assists and steals, shot higher from 3 than Harden did overall from the field, broke the 3pt record and his team won 11 more games than Houston, Curry was almost better in every single metric that season..unless you think 27/6/7 on worse efficiency is better than what Curry did.

It's not the same thing, WB this season is putting up better numbers in almost every single statistic on a worse team and played better than Harden H2H - complete opposite of the Curry and Harden situation.


WB was better than Harden in two categories, and both were within reason, so lets not make it some drastic dropoff for Harden vs WB here. Harden also did have an overall better eFG.

bottom line is the goalposts moved to fit agendas, Harden had the better record and overall the better team, like Curry did in 2015, and Harden was equally as good (within reb/pts/ast/spread).

however now that you're stanning WB, that criteria flips and Harden, though he did basically the same or close to the same Curry did in 2015, he's overlooked because of the trip-dub accolade.

i have no issue with WB btw, love him and his aggression/passion to the game - however it's not translating into wins (which is the most important aspect), and like BigO in his day, WB won't see any true success until his game lessens and allows another talent to shine alongside him once again (ala the KD days). will that happen again
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Old 04-26-2017, 04:14 PM   #1542
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Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs 1st Round GT: (3) Houston Rockets vs (6) Oklahoma City Thunder

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Originally Posted by ImKobe
Do you consider Harden a good 3pt shooter? They shot almost an identical percentage from 3 this season on similar volume... you wouldn't think a wide open 3 would be a bad shot for Harden... it's easy to blame someone after he missed the shot but you have to take the wide open 3.

I would agree with the other part of your post if OKC didn't have the worst 3pt shooting team in the league, honestly I just don't see any other option because the defense collapses on him when he drives, the open 3 that they gave him was a good look considering all things, refs aren't blatantly going to call every drive and you've seen the TOs, Houston was smart to bank on Russ missing the 3 because there was no other way of stopping him.


Harden had his worst season of his career shooting the 3 (% wise) while Westbrook had his best and Harden still shot the 3 point ball better.. and most of Harden's 3's aren't wide open, because every team in the league knows that's what Houston wants to do. In this series though just about everybody went to shit though. Ryan Anderson was placed on a milk box (Did he even make one?).
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Old 04-26-2017, 04:20 PM   #1543
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Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs 1st Round GT: (3) Houston Rockets vs (6) Oklahoma City Thunder

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Originally Posted by r15mohd
WB was better than Harden in two categories, and both were within reason, so lets not make it some drastic dropoff for Harden vs WB here. Harden also did have an overall better eFG.

bottom line is the goalposts moved to fit agendas, Harden had the better record and overall the better team, like Curry did in 2015, and Harden was equally as good (within reb/pts/ast/spread).

however now that you're stanning WB, that criteria flips and Harden, though he did basically the same or close to the same Curry did in 2015, he's overlooked because of the trip-dub accolade.

i have no issue with WB btw, love him and his aggression/passion to the game - however it's not translating into wins (which is the most important aspect), and like BigO in his day, WB won't see any true success until his game lessens and allows another talent to shine alongside him once again (ala the KD days). will that happen again

How have I moved goalposts - WB, like Curry, put up better numbers and outplayed Harden H2H, Curry deserved the MVP and it showed when they met up in the Playoffs and Curry backed that MVP up the following season when they won even more and he shot even better.

How is Westbrook's game not translating to wins?? His team wins at an 80% rate in the games he gets the triple double, he was literally a positive on the floor in the last 4 Playoff games that his bench lost for him, do I need to keep repeating the same stats over and over again? How is it his fault the team loses the game when he puts up a near 50 pt triple double and is +12 for the game and even +1 in the 4th despite his cold shooting in that quarter, the team got outscored by 18 points when he was not on the floor in 6 total minutes.

OKC with Westbrook on the floor in the series - +15
OKC without Westbrook on the floor in the sries - -58

how the hell do you get outscored by 18 points in 6 minutes in a damn elimination game, this series showed more than anything how important Westbrook was for the team because they were absolute dogshit without him and didn't know what to do.
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Old 04-26-2017, 04:46 PM   #1544
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Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs 1st Round GT: (3) Houston Rockets vs (6) Oklahoma City Thunder

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Originally Posted by ImKobe
How have I moved goalposts - WB, like Curry, put up better numbers and outplayed Harden H2H, Curry deserved the MVP and it showed when they met up in the Playoffs and Curry backed that MVP up the following season when they won even more and he shot even better.

How is Westbrook's game not translating to wins?? His team wins at an 80% rate in the games he gets the triple double, he was literally a positive on the floor in the last 4 Playoff games that his bench lost for him, do I need to keep repeating the same stats over and over again? How is it his fault the team loses the game when he puts up a near 50 pt triple double and is +12 for the game and even +1 in the 4th despite his cold shooting in that quarter, the team got outscored by 18 points when he was not on the floor in 6 total minutes.

OKC with Westbrook on the floor in the series - +15
OKC without Westbrook on the floor in the sries - -58

how the hell do you get outscored by 18 points in 6 minutes in a damn elimination game, this series showed more than anything how important Westbrook was for the team because they were absolute dogshit without him and didn't know what to do.

They were absolute dog shit with too much of him as well. That's what I've been trying to say.

His stats are cool and all, but its not winning basketball. When he's on the court, the entire offense runs through him so when he comes off the court, everyone is confused AF.

Quote:
Both players have a significant number of games where they’ve recorded greater than a 40 percent usage, but Harden has a monumental advantage there. Based on Basketball-Reference’s game logs, Harden is 16-3 when his usage percentage is 40 or higher, and he has a 64.8 true shooting percentage in those games. Westbrook is 18-21 and has a true shooting percentage of 55.1.

Furthermore, Westbrook has 12 games where his usage percentage is over 50! And his true shooting percentage in those games is 55.0. The league’s overall true shooting percentage is 55.2 percent.

Basketball is a possession game, and Harden is making more of the possessions he uses. That has an obvious correlation with winning.

When Harden uses a large number of possessions (bear in mind that usage percentage includes turnovers), he does so with highly efficient results. In fact, the higher Harden’s usage is the more his true shooting percentage goes up. Westbrook, on the other hand, sees a drop in efficiency when he’s utilizing a large number of possessions.

Furthermore, Harden keeps his teammates more involved, even when he’s “feeling it.” Harden has only six games with a 40 percent usage and fewer than 10 assists, with a 4-2 record in those games.

Westbrook has 19 and is just 5-14 in those situations.

Again, his teammates were all good players before this season. Now, not so much, and I think a lot of that has to do with having Westbrook as a teammate.
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Old 04-26-2017, 04:57 PM   #1545
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Default Re: 2017 NBA Playoffs 1st Round GT: (3) Houston Rockets vs (6) Oklahoma City Thunder

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They were absolute dog shit with too much of him as well.

Maybe, but all I know is that usually the usage rating goes to ridiculous levels when a team is underperforming - this is where a star player tries to take the game over because his team is clearly inferior.

Harden and Westbrook play relatively on the same level as players, both are arguably as important to their team's overall success, Russ usually is forced to do more because he gets little to no help from his bench depending on the match-up and he doesn't have any reliable shooters to kick it to.

It's like when Kobe was getting criticized in 2013 when the Lakers had a terrible start to the season despite him putting up some of the best numbers of his career, he was getting criticized for missing some shots when they were put in a hole in the 4th but the problem was obvious - the bench provided little to no help and they got no help from their "3pt shooters", who at the time were Ron Artest and Pau Gasol in MDA's system

Point is, WB can do but so much on a nightly basis. He had a 50 pt triple double in Game 2 with a +11 and his bench blew most of a double digit lead and they lost, he had another triple double in Game 4 with a 35/14/14/3 stat line while being a +14 and they lost, he had 47/11/9 on 44% shooting, was a +12 in Game 5 and they lost, even when he had 20 pts in the 3rd quarter of that game his team could barely build a lead and the bench again blew the lead and put him in a 7 pt hole once he came back in.

It's just too much to ask of anyone to carry the offense for the entire game and not have bad stretches of basketball, the shooting % drops in the 4th because the defense locks down on you and now your teammates are looking at you to take them home, even giving up wide open shots in the process because they don't trust their shot.
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