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Old 02-03-2008, 04:53 PM   #46
wTFaMonkey
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Default Re: Barack Obama's Healthcare Plan

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Originally Posted by Sharas
so, you think every single thing that government does has to be exactly written and pinpointed in the constitution, or else it's not constitutional?

wow. just wow. wake up. no state in the world works that way. you don't even understand what "not constitutional" means. this also goes for heilige.



sharas. if you subsidize the people. more and more freedoms will be taken away. and eventually. you wont have any because the government feeds you from cradle to grave. you might like that idea. but i absolutely dont. its not what the founding fathers wanted. America represents FREEDOM. if we let the government subsidize us more and more. we will eventually lose most of the freedoms we have now.
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Old 02-03-2008, 04:53 PM   #47
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Default Re: Barack Obama's Healthcare Plan

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I know, I'm a dinosaur because I believe the constittution should be adhered to but oh well. The feds are supposed to be limited to the powers specifically enumerated in that document, a government that doesn't adhere to it's constitution is abhorent as well as illegal. Tell you what, get the people to amend the document, adding the enumerated power to make sure everyone has health insurance and I'll support Obama's plan, until then, no.

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Originally Posted by Sharas
so, you think every single thing that government does has to be exactly written and pinpointed in the constitution, or else it's not constitutional?

wow. just wow. wake up. no state in the world works that way. you don't even understand what "not constitutional" means.

according to you, everything that isn't exactly written in the constitution is forbidden by the constitution and therefore illegal?
just FYI, you'd have to have a 1000 pages constitution if things worked that way.
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Old 02-03-2008, 05:00 PM   #48
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Default Re: Barack Obama's Healthcare Plan

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Originally Posted by wTFaMonkey


sharas. if you subsidize the people. more and more freedoms will be taken away. and eventually. you wont have any because the government feeds you from cradle to grave. you might like that idea. but i absolutely dont. its not what the founding fathers wanted. America represents FREEDOM. if we let the government subsidize us more and more. we will eventually lose most of the freedoms we have now.

why haven't then western europe and canada "eventually lost most of the freedoms"?
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Old 02-03-2008, 05:01 PM   #49
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Default Re: Barack Obama's Healthcare Plan

also, on the great depression.

ben bernake, the chaiman of the federal reserve, admitted that the federal reserve cause the great depression.
" Regarding the Great Depression. You're right, we did it. We're very sorry...."
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Old 02-03-2008, 05:04 PM   #50
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Default Re: Barack Obama's Healthcare Plan

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Originally Posted by Sharas
why haven't then western europe and canada "eventually lost most of the freedoms"?

what?

i never said subsidizing healthcare = losing freedoms

but i did say. if you subsidize the people more and more. you will eventually lose your freedoms.

europe tax the hell out of their citizens. also, they dont have to spend TRILLIONS of dollars to fund a illegal war.
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Old 02-03-2008, 05:08 PM   #51
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Default Re: Barack Obama's Healthcare Plan

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Any time someone TAKES from one for the good of another its called THEFT!
IT IS A CRIME!

If you want to see the quality of healthcare dive drastically, lets socialize it. We are already importing doctors and nurses like crazy (most notably from India and the Middle East). If we socialize medicine, we can expect to see almost nothing but foreigners runnning our healthcare. Why? Because the best and brightest in the country expect to be compensated to go to 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school ANOTHER 4 years if they specialize, and then 2 to 3 years or residency. The fact of the matter is, the best and the brightest are choosing alternative careers as a result of the current healthcare situation and it would become even worse under gov't controlled healthcare.


I agree with most of what you said, except that statement. With the way the current economy is, a lot of students are going into health and medicine. Correct if I am wrong, but there has been an increase in the number of students applying and getting admissions to medical schools. The ones that are unable to get into US schools are using other means such as foreign Carribean schools. All those schools have seen a huge increase of American student enrollments.

and yes, most of them get into this profession since the compensation and rewards after completing your education is really good. With socialized medicine those rewards will go down and the quality will go down as well. Government intervention will only make health care worse since the government often is not very good at spending. There would be bureaucracy. Having competition from the corporate world actually makes services better.

If we have to, we should do something similar to Germany. They have a two system health care. Private and Public. So the citizens can have access to only one system. The ones that decide to use the public system get taxed and the ones that decide to pay their health costs themselves or through insurance, do not get taxed.

the countries where they have free health care, Canada, have a really messed up system. The waiting times are huge for surgeries, appointments, and ER. The rewards to these doctors that spend half of their life studying is not as great as it is in the States. The hospitals get many of their departments closed because the government decides its too expensive. Its just a ****ty system.
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Old 02-03-2008, 05:08 PM   #52
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Default Re: Barack Obama's Healthcare Plan

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Originally Posted by wTFaMonkey
what?

i never said subsidizing healthcare = losing freedoms

but i did say. if you subsidize the people more and more. you will eventually lose your freedoms.

europe tax the hell out of their citizens. also, they dont have to spend TRILLIONS of dollars to fund a illegal war.

now you wait to be flamed by heilige, since according to him, it's entirely legal, righteous, and for greater good of america's people.
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Old 02-03-2008, 05:09 PM   #53
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Default Re: Barack Obama's Healthcare Plan

Quote:
Originally Posted by wTFaMonkey


sharas. if you subsidize the people. more and more freedoms will be taken away. and eventually. you wont have any because the government feeds you from cradle to grave. you might like that idea. but i absolutely dont. its not what the founding fathers wanted. America represents FREEDOM. if we let the government subsidize us more and more. we will eventually lose most of the freedoms we have now.




Can Sharas lay his finger on the part of the Constitution where it says that the government is supposed to feed people, house them and give them medical care? It's not the Government's job! The government can't even do the job it's supposed to do.
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Old 02-03-2008, 05:10 PM   #54
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Default Re: Barack Obama's Healthcare Plan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharas
now you wait to be flamed by heilige, since according to him, it's entirely legal, righteous, and for greater good of america's people.


Nope, not gonna happen. I respect his opinions, even though I don't agree with him on the war issue. Try again.
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Old 02-03-2008, 05:10 PM   #55
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Default Re: Barack Obama's Healthcare Plan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharas
now you wait to be flamed by heilige, since according to him, it's entirely legal, righteous, and for greater good of america's people.



IM READY

heilige is right on with this stuff. i do agree with his opinions
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Old 02-03-2008, 05:13 PM   #56
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Default Re: Barack Obama's Healthcare Plan

This is what happens when you raise the standard of living. Years ago, when the social classes were closer together, and most were lacking money, there was less crime and the people seemed happy. Once the standard of living went up(increasing cost of health care, rent, education, food, gas, and basic living), you have people constantly killing each other, the poor are causing trouble(there are obviously less poor people now, compared to over 30 years ago), and it's difficult to live a decent life because there is always the worry of ending up homeless and not being able to afford simple things, like health care.
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Old 02-03-2008, 05:14 PM   #57
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Default Re: Barack Obama's Healthcare Plan

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Originally Posted by wTFaMonkey
also, on the great depression.

ben bernake, the chaiman of the federal reserve, admitted that the federal reserve cause the great depression.
" Regarding the Great Depression. You're right, we did it. We're very sorry...."

the entirely free market system can never exist. but those years were as close to it as it ever get. and it resulted in the great economic crisis, essentially a hyperproduction crisis.
and it was resolved by interventionist measures.

the "true" free market is a myth. it would mean doing absolutely nothing apart from police, army and foreign policy. it simply isn't a viable option. and even what you have in america now is very far from that ideal, although it's much closer to it than what rest of the world does.
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Old 02-03-2008, 05:14 PM   #58
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Default Re: Barack Obama's Healthcare Plan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heilige


Can Sharas lay his finger on the part of the Constitution where it says that the government is supposed to feed people, house them and give them medical care? It's not the Government's job! The government can't even do the job it's supposed to do.

thats the difference between a conservative and a liberal mindset though. Conservatives trust the people more. The mindset is to allow the citizens to make their own decisions. The liberals on teh other hand, have this notion that people are unable to make their own decisions and so the government must implement services for them to utilize.

If it wasn't for the conservatives killing people and making bone headed foreign policies, I would vote conservatives since I agree with their economic policies. But these conservatives are religious nutjobs. all of them, except Ron Paul.
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Old 02-03-2008, 05:15 PM   #59
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Default Re: Barack Obama's Healthcare Plan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heilige


Can Sharas lay his finger on the part of the Constitution where it says that the government is supposed to feed people, house them and give them medical care? It's not the Government's job! The government can't even do the job it's supposed to do.

it's also not forbidden by the constitution - and therefore not unconstitutional or illegal, contrary to what you imply.
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Old 02-03-2008, 05:16 PM   #60
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Default Re: Barack Obama's Healthcare Plan

but right now. the standard of living is going down because of the countries like china. they are eventually going to catch up to us. our dollars are becoming weaker and weaker everyday and one day. the world will stop accepting american dollars as the reserve currency. too bad for us
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