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Old 09-15-2018, 11:59 AM   #76
BigShotBob
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Default Re: SI's Top 100 NBA players of 2019

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
If you only care about people who led team to titles you dont have much to talk about on any subject though.

Most greats are gonna lose in every era. Doesnt mean they arent worth discussing.

I phrased that wrong.

At least most greats you could have seen "potentially" win a championship if they didn't go up against another great.

But these dudes? They have no hope without jumping on someone else's bandwagon.

Paul George? Never. He was simply never good enough.

Kawhi might be the closest but he was injured so I don't consider him truly to be outside of the top 10.

Giannis? Can't even get out of the first round. We'll see how he improves.

And on and on and on....

My biggest gripe about most of these guys is that most of them simply don't play smart enough. You would think with all of the film they have now, as well as the benefit of learning from the greats (Bird, Magic, Wilt, Oscar, West, etc, etc) they would understand how to win and make it their mission to win, but for some reason that just doesn't happen.

Too much focus on athleticism, being physically ready and in shape, meanwhile their skills either deteriorate or remain constant.

Durant was told that he was too scrawny, small, and weak. He was encouraged to lift more weights because they all laughed at him at the Draft Combine.

Even though he did get much stronger, he doubled down on his skill-set of scoring and became much better. Now he's making shots with more regularity than he ever used to and he picks his spots better.

He was criticized as a passer/playmaker and he's considerably better now than he's ever been.

Overall I just want to see better basketball. And lately I just haven't been seeing it. Outside of the usual suspects, these other guys just haven't shown me enough.
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Old 09-15-2018, 12:41 PM   #77
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Default Re: SI's Top 100 NBA players of 2019

The Celtics had a much better win percentage when Kyrie played and horford didn't than it did when horford played and Kyrie didn't. I've said many times that Kyrie is possibly the most underrated player in NBA history. Funny how they rate Lillard over him. This list is meaningless. Everyone has an opinion.
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Old 09-15-2018, 01:55 PM   #78
Xiao Yao You
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Default Re: SI's Top 100 NBA players of 2019

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
If you only care about people who led team to titles you dont have much to talk about on any subject though.

Most greats are gonna lose in every era. Doesnt mean they arent worth discussing.

Obviously when Robert Horry is a HOFer rings is all that matters.
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Old 09-15-2018, 05:46 PM   #79
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Default Re: SI's Top 100 NBA players of 2019

Another groupthink list. People in the future will probably have reason to wonder how people today could be so blinkered when the results are as conspicuous as they have ever been.
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Old 09-17-2018, 01:13 AM   #80
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Default Re: SI's Top 100 NBA players of 2019

Quote:
Originally Posted by moongaze
The Celtics had a much better win percentage when Kyrie played and horford didn't than it did when horford played and Kyrie didn't. I've said many times that Kyrie is possibly the most underrated player in NBA history. Funny how they rate Lillard over him. This list is meaningless. Everyone has an opinion.
Lillard impacts the game a lot more than Kyrie does. Kyrie honestly doesn’t have nearly the impact you and others think he does.
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Old 09-17-2018, 01:14 AM   #81
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Default Re: SI's Top 100 NBA players of 2019

Also LMAO at the most overrated player in the entire league being UNDERrated. Hilarious.
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Old 09-17-2018, 01:27 AM   #82
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Default Re: SI's Top 100 NBA players of 2019

Quote:
Originally Posted by moongaze
The Celtics had a much better win percentage when Kyrie played and horford didn't than it did when horford played and Kyrie didn't. I've said many times that Kyrie is possibly the most underrated player in NBA history. Funny how they rate Lillard over him. This list is meaningless. Everyone has an opinion.
Are we seriously using a 6 game sample size to make this argument? Here are their 5 wins without Horford and with Kyrie: Lakers, Hornets, Nuggets, Nets, Clippers. 3 straight up bad teams and two more respectable but still lottery teams.

Meanwhile Horford without Kyrie, in the playoffs where it actually matters and against way better competition, got them to within 1 quarter of the NBA finals.
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Old 09-17-2018, 01:30 AM   #83
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Default Re: SI's Top 100 NBA players of 2019

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milbuck
Are we seriously using a 6 game sample size to make this argument? Here are their 5 wins without Horford and with Kyrie: Lakers, Hornets, Nuggets, Nets, Clippers. 3 straight up bad teams and two more respectable but still lottery teams.

Meanwhile Horford without Kyrie, in the playoffs where it actually matters and against way better competition, got them to within 1 quarter of the NBA finals.

But we can all agree that they're not a championship team without him.

No team's goal is to simply make the Finals. It's to win. And Kyrie gives them the best chance.

Being within one quarter of the Finals to get swept means very little.
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Old 09-17-2018, 01:35 AM   #84
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Default Re: SI's Top 100 NBA players of 2019

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Originally Posted by BigShotBob
But we can all agree that they're not a championship team without him.

No team's goal is to simply make the Finals. It's to win. And Kyrie gives them the best chance.

Being within one quarter of the Finals to get swept means very little.
It means little if we're just talking about teams contending for titles. But for evaluating how good a player is, yeah, being able to get your team down 2 all-stars to game 7 of the conference finals actually matters.

This 'not a championship team without Kyrie' is pointless. They're not winning anything without Horford either.
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Old 09-17-2018, 01:47 AM   #85
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Default Re: SI's Top 100 NBA players of 2019

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Originally Posted by Milbuck
It means little if we're just talking about teams contending for titles. But for evaluating how good a player is, yeah, being able to get your team down 2 all-stars to game 7 of the conference finals actually matters.

This 'not a championship team without Kyrie' is pointless. They're not winning anything without Horford either.

Well it's already been proven that Kyrie is a championship caliber player and extremely clutch. I'm not sure why his value is being questioned as if he didn't drop 40+ points on 71% shooting in one game in the Finals.

Acting as if a team that's well coached in a watered down conference making the ECF is a slight against any individual (when the team wasn't even built around him) is an asinine assertion at best. Kyrie without Horford could still make the Finals and contend with the Warriors (previous version).

Horford is a great player but Kyrie is the difference maker. He's far too dynamic.
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Old 09-17-2018, 01:52 AM   #86
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Default Re: SI's Top 100 NBA players of 2019

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Originally Posted by BigShotBob
Well it's already been proven that Kyrie is a championship caliber player and extremely clutch. I'm not sure why his value is being questioned as if he didn't drop 40+ points on 71% shooting in one game in the Finals.
Because it's a one game sample size and a lot of players could dominate in single games or in 3-4 game stretches. Maybe not purely in scoring like Kyrie, but perhaps in a more two-way sense.
Quote:
Acting as if a team that's well coached in a watered down conference making the ECF is a slight against any individual (when the team wasn't even built around him) is an asinine assertion at best. Kyrie without Horford could still make the Finals and contend with the Warriors (previous version).
It's really not asinine. Doesn't matter how weak the conference was, not a single team in the conference would've made it that in the playoffs down two all-stars, and Horford lead them there. That matters.
Quote:
Horford is a great player but Kyrie is the difference maker. He's far too dynamic.
Yeah I'm not buying this. Pretty much all the actual impact metrics point to Horford being the more valuable Celtic this past year and he backed that up by the Celtics winning at a 50+ win pace in the RS without Kyrie (and this in a much bigger sample) and again within 1 quarter of the finals. I'm not automatically bumping Kyrie above him just based on dynamic scoring when there's a ton of valuable things Horford does better.

Now for next year I expect Horford to decline a bit and Kyrie to get a bit better, but Horford was a more valuable player than Kyrie in 17-18.
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Old 09-17-2018, 03:44 AM   #87
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Default Re: SI's Top 100 NBA players of 2019

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Originally Posted by Milbuck
Because it's a one game sample size and a lot of players could dominate in single games or in 3-4 game stretches. Maybe not purely in scoring like Kyrie, but perhaps in a more two-way sense.

In today's league? You could barely name five.

Quote:
It's really not asinine. Doesn't matter how weak the conference was, not a single team in the conference would've made it that in the playoffs down two all-stars, and Horford lead them there. That matters.

It wasn't just Horford. Tatum blossomed before our eyes as did Rozier and Smart hustled his ass off. Fighting centers for offensive put-backs that Horford couldn't even get. It was a team effort in every sense of the word.

Quote:
Yeah I'm not buying this. Pretty much all the actual impact metrics point to Horford being the more valuable Celtic this past year and he backed that up by the Celtics winning at a 50+ win pace in the RS without Kyrie (and this in a much bigger sample) and again within 1 quarter of the finals. I'm not automatically bumping Kyrie above him just based on dynamic scoring when there's a ton of valuable things Horford does better.

A big will always have more impact than a guard. That is nothing new. And every metric will support this (if that big is half-way competent on offense and defense at least). This has been known since the 70's.

Dynamic scoring is the most valuable asset to have, especially in the Finals. Klay Thompson is on record of saying that he was glad Kyrie left Cleveland because he was the hardest player to guard. Not Lebron.
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