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Old 10-03-2017, 11:25 AM   #31
Orlando Magic
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

As far as guns go, my biggest issue is this...

Literally, in any state, it is more difficult to get a driver's license than it is a gun...

How is that not a problem? Obviously motorists need some training before getting on the road unassisted and I think drivers licenses are good things for obvious reasons and I think something similar should exist for ALL firearm ownership, and mainly I think everyone should have to undergo a psych evaluation by a non government entity prior to ownership.

So as with driving already is, I think gun ownership should be a legal privilege, not a completely free right. It already is a priveledge because they do a background check if buying from a store, but I don't think the psych eval idea is a bad one.
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:30 AM   #32
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando Magic
As far as guns go, my biggest issue is this...

Literally, in any state, it is more difficult to get a driver's license than it is a gun...

How is that not a problem? Obviously motorists need some training before getting on the road unassisted and I think drivers licenses are good things for obvious reasons and I think something similar should exist for ALL firearm ownership, and mainly I think everyone should have to undergo a psych evaluation by a non government entity prior to ownership.

So as with driving already is, I think gun ownership should be a legal privilege, not a completely free right. It already is a priveledge because they do a background check if buying from a store, but I don't think the psych eval idea is a bad one.


A lot more driving deaths per year than gun-related deaths. I am more worried about the idiots driving around me than someone with a gun.
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:30 AM   #33
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

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Originally Posted by UK2K
So a responsible gun owner wouldn't sell their guns, because there's no telling what someone else may do with it?

Not trying to be a smartass, I'm just not following your line of thought here.

So you're going to make it illegal for me to sell the guns I already have? Or are you going to make me responsible for the person I sold the gun to, which in effect makes selling a gun nearly illegal? What about if he sells the gun, am I responsible for that person too?

you lawfully passed all checks (mental, non-felon, etc) to purchase your gun -- it is yours. however, after some time, you want to upgrade and see no need to keep the one you already own. in being allowed to sell this gun privately, be it to any individual through a 1:1 sale or gun fair, etc, the potential buyer will need to pass those same pre-requisites in being able to have transfer of ownership.

if they fail to check out, you cannot sell to that person. if you do sell to that person (at this point, in an illegal fashion as the buyer is deemed unfit to own/possess), you are held liable as you knowing completed the sale regardless of the background checks completed.

only time you can sell the gun privately, is to an individual who passes their background checks, mental fitness, etc...if you see this as a burdened instance, there are licensed gun shops who will gladly purchase your firearms and already in good standing with the same checks and balances to do so, and almost immediately able to complete trasnfer of ownership as they're licensed already.

Last edited by r15mohd : 10-03-2017 at 11:36 AM.
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:32 AM   #34
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chewing
A lot more driving deaths per year than gun-related deaths. I am more worried about the idiots driving around me than someone with a gun.

Well you're not wrong but if the same amount of people that have licenses also had firearms I think the gun fatalities would exceed the motorist ones lol.
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:33 AM   #35
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

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Originally Posted by r15mohd
and why mental checks should be included with background chekcs...you have to fully check out in being able to own and operate a gun. if a red flag comes up during any indication of this, you dont get it.

like mentioned above, there will be those who pass with flying colors and commit unjust acts...however doing nothing is blatant ignorance in solving what possibly could have been prevented.

if you don't see an issue in owning a car and having the privilege of a driving license granted to you, then there's no reason something along this process for gun ownership/use should be prevented in implementing


What kind of mental checks? And any type of exam like that will be inconclusive and will have many lawyers involved. It will not work.


Let's face it, the only solution is the full on removal of weapons all together. And that will never happen. Low ammo capacity? That's been done already.
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:35 AM   #36
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando Magic
As far as guns go, my biggest issue is this...

Literally, in any state, it is more difficult to get a driver's license than it is a gun...

How is that not a problem? Obviously motorists need some training before getting on the road unassisted and I think drivers licenses are good things for obvious reasons and I think something similar should exist for ALL firearm ownership, and mainly I think everyone should have to undergo a psych evaluation by a non government entity prior to ownership.

So as with driving already is, I think gun ownership should be a legal privilege, not a completely free right. It already is a priveledge because they do a background check if buying from a store, but I don't think the psych eval idea is a bad one.

It is. Felons cant own one. People guilty of domestic violence can't own one. People undergoing medical treatment for mental illness can't own one.
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:35 AM   #37
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:35 AM   #38
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

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Originally Posted by r15mohd
you lawfully passed all checks (mental, non-felon, etc) to purchase your gun -- it is yours. however, after some time, you want to upgrade and see no need to keep the one you already own. in being allowed to sell this gun privately, be it to any individual through a 1:1 sale or gun fair, etc, the potential buyer will need to pass those same pre-requisites in being able to have transfer of ownership.

if they fail to check out, you cannot sell to that person. if you do sell to that person (at this point, in an illegal fashion as the buyer is deemed unfit to own/possess), you are held liable as you knowing completed the sale regardless of the background checks completed.


this seems like total common sense. how would you not be liable if you sold to someone on a total whim and they did something bad with it? seems like a really dumb thing to put yourself in that position in the first place.
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:37 AM   #39
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

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Originally Posted by UK2K
It is. Felons cant own one. People guilty of domestic violence can't own one. People undergoing medical treatment for mental illness can't own one.

if you were selling to some dude you just met or somebody youve worked with for only a year or two how would you go about knowing all these things about them before selling?
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:38 AM   #40
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

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Originally Posted by r15mohd
well that's where the good old investigative mesaures come into play ... if the criminal can attest to your indication of it being stolen, then you're in the clear. if evidence is proven you sold the gun, illegally in this scenario, you're in as much sh!t as the criminal for being negligent in aiding in a crime.

Outside of video evidence, or signing a bill of sale, it'd be pretty improbable to prove that the gun was, in fact, sold and not stolen. Nothing more than a he says, she says situation and with one party already being accused, how believable would they be?
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:39 AM   #41
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by r15mohd
you lawfully passed all checks (mental, non-felon, etc) to purchase your gun -- it is yours. however, after some time, you want to upgrade and see no need to keep the one you already own. in being allowed to sell this gun privately, be it to any individual through a 1:1 sale or gun fair, etc, the potential buyer will need to pass those same pre-requisites in being able to have transfer of ownership.

if they fail to check out, you cannot sell to that person. if you do sell to that person (at this point, in an illegal fashion as the buyer is deemed unfit to own/possess), you are held liable as you knowing completed the sale regardless of the background checks completed.

only time you can sell the gun privately, is to an individual who passes their background checks, mental fitness, etc...if you see this as a burdened instance, there are licensed gun shops who will gladly purchase your firearms and already in good standing with the same checks and balances to do so, and almost immediately able to complete trasnfer of ownership as they're licensed already.

Who is paying for these? Are you going to make the gun owners pay, what is essentially an additional cost, to sell their gun? Who is going to run the checks? A guy who knows a guy, or does it need to be submitted to the federal government?

If you thought scratching serial numbers off guns was popular before...

I actually don't hate the idea.
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:43 AM   #42
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

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Originally Posted by Patrick Chewing
What kind of mental checks? And any type of exam like that will be inconclusive and will have many lawyers involved. It will not work.


Let's face it, the only solution is the full on removal of weapons all together. And that will never happen. Low ammo capacity? That's been done already.

there have been mental checks done enacted, however they've been lenient...and even with its leniency, they've been proven effective as the denial rates have increased due to it as many more have not checked out.

and if you feel you need to prove yourself fit to own a gun through lawyer, so be it...and if you win that case, you can then sue. win-win!

all i'm hearing is excuses to not do more from your end what initiatives do you have? i own, you own, is there issues you have in showing your responsibility to continue to do so - i don't, nothing to hide on my end. what are you afraid of, that you wont check out?

well guess what, if that's your scare - then maybe you're not fit to own
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:46 AM   #43
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UK2K
So then what?

We are jailing people over selling a gun to their neighbor? I thought we had enough criminals in the system already that didn't need to be there. Now we want to jail people for selling a gun?

Gulag for the speeders now, in the name of public safety?


Who said anybody goes to jail? I feel like I'm arguing with talking points used against arguments I'm not making. My intention isn't to lock somebody up for selling an extra hunting rifle without a background check. My intention is to dis incentivize the selling of so many guns by reducing the supply long-term. Let's say that due to tax a cheap 9 costs $700 instead of 259. think so many of these young unemployed drug dealers selling crack for less than minimum-wage would have one? When an A.R. 15 is $6000 instead of 600 don't you think its more likely to stay out of the hands of the kind of people who don't take gun culture seriously?

If all you do is price out a lot of young morons who think guns and gun ownership shouldn't be taken serious you save thousands of lives.

And at the same time a gun is more of an investment so people are less likely to sell them without care. You'll be dealing with more reputable people more likely to do the right thing.
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:49 AM   #44
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

And before someone says it yes this guy who shot up Vegas with steel getting one. He was apparently a millionaire. But I never said you could stop tragedies. I said you could save a lot of lives and you can without taking anyone's so called freedom's.
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Old 10-03-2017, 11:49 AM   #45
r15mohd
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Default Re: Are you team safety or team personal freedoms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UK2K
Who is paying for these? Are you going to make the gun owners pay, what is essentially an additional cost, to sell their gun? Who is going to run the checks? A guy who knows a guy, or does it need to be submitted to the federal government?

If you thought scratching serial numbers off guns was popular before...

I actually don't hate the idea.


as with selling a car, the new owner would be responsible for the fees to complete the trasnfer and you would simply turn in your end in selling to the individual, so they will be on the clock to register with 30-days after the checks and sale is completed (stricter if it were up to me)...remember, they want your gun and have to prove themselves fit to do so. if they see paying a fee to do so is unjust or whatever, then they incriminate themselves in my opinion as being fit.

it would need some sort of federal standard to validate these checks and balances, needs to be strict and across the board. not up for interpretation by the state level to what they can impose/omit.
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