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Old 03-12-2007, 06:19 PM   #31
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Default Re: Gerald or Wally?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Men Wear Green
Well, Szczerbiak should probably get a "5" for shooting, he's at least as strong as Davis and yet you gave him a 2 to Davis's 3.5, the "0" for durability is overboard, . Also, please don't ignite a flame war with Celts34. I know it happens all the time on the regular board, but ISH told me to keep that down, believe it or not, and I'm trying to do so.

Wally shooting 41% from the field makes it impossible to give him a five from the field.

Quote:
he's at least as strong as Davis and yet you gave him a 2 to Davis's 3.5, the


Nah, Rumors from the Celtics was Ricky, while he was in the gym, repped 240lbs on his bench. Although I don't know Wally's personally, looking at his arms, I doubt he could match it.(If someone has heard otherwise, I'll concede it gladly.)

Quote:
the "0" for durability is overboard


Since he came? Fine! Maybe a 0.5-1.0 is more appropriate.

Quote:
and Davis isn't that good at dribbling (you gave him a 4 when his handle is average)


Ricky has really improved on his dribbling skills ever since entering the league. While on that last year with the Cavs, they frequently tested as point guard because they liked his dribbling skills and ability to protect the ball a lot in Cleveland. However, it was tested in Boston a few times, Doc didn't like him there that much. Either way he is miles ahead of Wally in this category.

Quote:
Also, please don't ignite a flame war with Celts34. I know it happens all the time on the regular board, but ISH told me to keep that down, believe it or not, and I'm trying to do so.


Fair enough. Wasn't not trying to incite one, just got angered at what I read.
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Old 03-12-2007, 06:33 PM   #32
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Default Re: Gerald or Wally?

Shooting ability isn't the same thing as field goal percentage and Szczerbiak is a career 49% shooter anyhow. He's low this year because he's been hurt. His career %ages are great across the board.

Davis was tested at pg in Cleveland for the same reason that he averaged 21: they were a really bad team.
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Old 03-12-2007, 09:04 PM   #33
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Default Re: Gerald or Wally?

Quote:
Well, Szczerbiak should probably get a "5" for shooting, he's at least as strong as Davis and yet you gave him a 2 to Davis's 3.5, the "0" for durability is overboard, and Davis isn't that good at dribbling (you gave him a 4 when his handle is average).
Building on that, Szczerbiak being only half a point over Davis in shooting is ridiculously unfair on your part when you consider one has made a career shooting 50% from the field and 40% from three. Let that sink in. 50% as a jumpshooter for a career. It's not close.

The strength - you do realize Davis is a twig while Szczerbiak is about 245 of straight muscle, right? I don't know what Szczerbiak you've been watching, but the one I see is jacked. The "0" for durability is overboard, again, the "when applied" isn't applicable, because that's like saying Wally's a 5 for durability (when healthy). Davis' help defense at 4.5 is a joke, he's nothing more than average on that front.

What's more, all these athletic categories Davis has the edge in still haven't allowed him to be a convincingly better player over his career than Wally. In short, it doesn't matter how much higher he can jump, or how much quicker he is, because Wally's advantages are a pure, efficient scorer outweigh those. They are similar in terms of overall players. You're just a Ricky Davis homer, which is fine considering what he did when he was here.

As for heart and leadership, no one plays with more fire than Wally Szczerbiak and he's been nothing but a positive influence in the Celtic locker room. There's a reason Delonte West and Paul Pierce raved about how much more the ball was moving once Wally arrived on the scene and about how much they love playing with him, or how much Glenn loves his attitude. Of course, that point is moot now that he can't stay healthy. But I don't expect you to give a guy traded for your favorite player a fair shake, anyway.
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Old 03-16-2007, 01:46 AM   #34
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Default Re: Gerald or Wally?

You know what XxNeXuSxX, its obvious that you like Ricky. I actually liked Ricky as well, when he was on the Celtics. I was completely wrong about him. He wasn't anywhere near the knucklehead I thought he was. I didn't want to trade him, and I just think you are misinterpreting what I am saying. When I look at a team getting raped in a trade(And this is really what set off my whole argument). I think of Charles Barkely going from the Sixers to the Suns for Jeff Hornacek, Shawn Bradley, and some other scrub whose name is escaping me. The Wizards trading Chris Webber for Mitch Ritchmond straight-up. Or how about Vince Carter to the Nets for Erik Williams, Alonzo Mourning, and Aaron Williams. Or in baseball a few years ago when the Twins traded AJ Pierzinski to the Giants(where he played for only 1 season) for Francisco Liriano, Boof Bonser, and Joe Nathan. These are cases where a team not only got raped but the team that benefited received both immediate and long-term impact.

I like Ricky but neither him nor Wally are impact players, they are 2nd or 3rd tier level fringe AS players(when they are having career years on winning teams and 4 or 5 regular AS' pull up lame). So to me I don't see losing Ricky as the end of the world, and if Mark Blount was here he wouldn't be what he is in Minnesota. He was pretty open about how he felt like he didn't see the ball enough, and Doc was pretty open about how he didn't want to play Mark because of his penchant to play matador defense and not ever box out. Remember Mark was backing up Perk(and wasn't being very quiet about his displeasure about it) before they traded him.

Morover GB(I don't think I'll ever call you Real Men Wear Green), I do get what you are saying about the fact that both teams are so far removed from the trade that it is impossible to say for sure that either is where they are currently specificically because of the deal. There are alot of reasons that the C's have become what they are. Btw I'm way too old to be getting into flamewars, man.
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Old 03-16-2007, 07:27 AM   #35
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Default Re: Gerald or Wally?

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I don't think I'll ever call you Real Men Wear Green
I was hoping that people would abbreviate it as "Real Man," but so far, no such luck...
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Old 03-16-2007, 03:05 PM   #36
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Default Re: Gerald or Wally?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndeeregreen
Building on that, Szczerbiak being only half a point over Davis in shooting is ridiculously unfair on your part when you consider one has made a career shooting 50% from the field and 40% from three. Let that sink in. 50% as a jumpshooter for a career. It's not close.

Quote:
Shooting ability isn't the same thing as field goal percentage and Szczerbiak is a career 49% shooter anyhow. He's low this year because he's been hurt. His career %ages are great across the board.


Well, we aren't talking about careers, we are talking about since Wally has been playing for the Celtics, and why the Celtics got raped in the trade.

I used to love Wally in Minnesotta, he would always be KG's bail out man when the clock was running short and he would be able to hit a shot with time running out. Hell, we made the playoffs 5 some odd straight years with Wally being that reliable second-tier shooter. However, since 2004, he lost all his mobility and is what you see now.

So, the shooting between them is now "not even close"? Well, I know FG% can be misleading (can be inflated by layups, like Tony Parker's). So I decided to prove this:

[IMG][/IMG]

This is Wally from this season. As you can probably see from this chart, he has been far from 'reliable' from anything in his midrange game.

Now...



This is Ricky from this season. Self explanatory.


So, about being "not even close"... This year, I agree, it's not close at all. Ricky is by far been better, I should change it into Ricky's favor, no?
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Old 03-17-2007, 07:53 PM   #37
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Default Re: Gerald or Wally?

Wally's been hurt all year. If you don't think ankles/knees affect your shot, well...

If you want to contend about this year, then yeah, Davis, hands down. My contention was that a healthy Szczerbiak is as good or better than Slick. The only problem is that he'll probably never be healthy again.

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Old 03-18-2007, 12:19 AM   #38
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Default Re: Gerald or Wally?

I think you have to look at the future.... Wally is nothing more then a spot up shooter at best and as shown he isn't even that anymore. Gerald is a high flyer who has alot of upside. Give him his time and like any guy who is given minutes his game will progress and eventually will get a jumper to compliment his amazing athletic abilities. Why play Wally next year or any year after that over Gerald when the Celtics have done nothing but play worse with Wally in the lineup.
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Old 03-19-2007, 08:46 AM   #39
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Default Re: Gerald or Wally?

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Originally Posted by ILuvThisGame
I think you have to look at the future.... Wally is nothing more then a spot up shooter at best and as shown he isn't even that anymore. Gerald is a high flyer who has alot of upside. Give him his time and like any guy who is given minutes his game will progress and eventually will get a jumper to compliment his amazing athletic abilities. Why play Wally next year or any year after that over Gerald when the Celtics have done nothing but play worse with Wally in the lineup.


Gerald already has a jumper. He came into the league with an NBA-level jumper. His problems right now are ball-handling, upper body strength, and consistency. He doesn't play with any consistency from game to game. He'll get you 25pts against the Mavs and then only 2 pts against the Spurs the next day.
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Old 03-19-2007, 09:56 AM   #40
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Default Re: Gerald or Wally?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celts34
Gerald already has a jumper. He came into the league with an NBA-level jumper. His problems right now are ball-handling, upper body strength, and consistency. He doesn't play with any consistency from game to game. He'll get you 25pts against the Mavs and then only 2 pts against the Spurs the next day.
how's gerald's defense? i don't think i've seen a celts game since i started this thread, so i have nothing to compare that game to, but he did a good job and was very active that night.
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Old 03-19-2007, 10:13 AM   #41
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Default Re: Gerald or Wally?

Overall his d is still bad. He gets fooled on cuts to the basket all the time and, as Heihnson likes to say, is "velcro" on picks. However, he can now at least stay in front of a man when they're trying to beat him off the dribble and challenge the shot.
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Old 03-19-2007, 11:33 AM   #42
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Default Re: Gerald or Wally?

if both guys are healthy, i'd pick Wally, he's better offensively. not only scoring-wise but his whole offensive game. i remembered he was the top 1 or 2 in fg% for 1 season, and he's shooter not a post player. he's also good off the dribble. defensively, i don't really think he's that bad. just average IMHO.
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Old 03-19-2007, 03:46 PM   #43
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Default Re: Gerald or Wally?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dejordan
how's gerald's defense? i don't think i've seen a celts game since i started this thread, so i have nothing to compare that game to, but he did a good job and was very active that night.


Like Gb said on the whole it's pretty bad. But that goes back to the whole consistency issue, because there are nights when he plays pretty good defense. But he's an average man defender, and just a well below-average team defender. When they play good teams, they almost always involve him in picks and screens. Mainy because 75% of the time he either can't fight thru the pick or he doesn't pick up the right man in the defensive rotation.

But the reason for optimism, is that Gerald has not only shown improvement in these areas since the start of the season but he also has shown that tough coaching doesn't bother him. Doc is always yelling at Gerald when he is on the court, but you never see him sulk, whine, or complain. Which is something I like about Gerald, and Big Al as well. They understand that they can be stars in the league, but that before they get there, there are alot of things they need to do better.
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