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Old 01-24-2010, 01:38 AM   #31
batneg12
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Default Re: Artest: Cleveland Is 'Nothing' Without LeBron

Still better than the Nets.
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Old 01-24-2010, 01:43 AM   #32
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Default Re: Artest: Cleveland Is 'Nothing' Without LeBron

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
It has only been done by a handful of legends like Kareem and Russell.
Don't forget Jordan ... cause even when Pippen was turning into a star caliber player, and even when he reached star player status when Jordan was out (which was rare to begin with) the Bulls looked like a dramatically different team.
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Old 01-24-2010, 02:34 AM   #33
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Default Re: Artest: Cleveland Is 'Nothing' Without LeBron

Quote:
Originally Posted by Take Your Lumps


Thanks for clearing that up, Ron.

He's right though. LA, ORL, BOS are all way better and deeper teams than CLE without their best players.

Yea I liked that quote
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Old 01-24-2010, 02:38 AM   #34
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Default Re: Artest: Cleveland Is 'Nothing' Without LeBron

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roundball_Rock
When he got hurt two years ago his team went 0-8 without him (well, he played in one of the games but did not start due to injury and played only 23 minutes). With him they were on pace for 50 wins (61% win rate). What does that tell you? Artest is right. That team would not win 30 games without Lebron. They may not even win 20. Mo Williams as your best player? What Lebron is doing is amazing. It has only been done by a handful of legends like Kareem and Russell.



Dude come on now. You're outrageously over exaggerating.


Lebron is the sole reason they win 60+ games? Without him, you're saying, they could hardly even get 20 wins? Really?
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Old 01-24-2010, 02:45 AM   #35
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Default Re: Artest: Cleveland Is 'Nothing' Without LeBron

Quote:
Originally Posted by oh the horror
Dude come on now. You're outrageously over exaggerating.


Lebron is the sole reason they win 60+ games? Without him, you're saying, they could hardly even get 20 wins? Really?

Yea, I dont agree with that either. I guess some people dont value intangibles outside of PPG (though Mo is a formidable #2 option). Cleveland has good rebounders, great team defense, and superb outside shooters (Parker shooting 47% from 3, Mo 42%, Gibson at 48%).
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Old 01-24-2010, 02:47 AM   #36
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Default Re: Artest: Cleveland Is 'Nothing' Without LeBron

I think Cleveland is very capable of somewhere in the 40s, as far as wins are concerned. This team isnt filled with bums.....they play well for a reason. Lebron James is the best player in the entire league, but hes still a man, for christs sake.
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Old 01-24-2010, 02:51 AM   #37
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Default Re: Artest: Cleveland Is 'Nothing' Without LeBron

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai Swoosh
Don't forget Jordan ... cause even when Pippen was turning into a star caliber player, and even when he reached star player status when Jordan was out (which was rare to begin with) the Bulls looked like a dramatically different team.

He is a Pippen fanboy and a Jordan hater, you know he will never give MJ credit.
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Old 01-24-2010, 03:14 AM   #38
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Default Re: Artest: Cleveland Is 'Nothing' Without LeBron

Quote:
He is a Pippen fanboy and a Jordan hater, you know he will never give MJ credit.

Ok. If MJ left his team would win 25 games and miss the playoffs without him. Happy?

Quote:
Lebron is the sole reason they win 60+ games? Without him, you're saying, they could hardly even get 20 wins? Really?

I could see them in the 25-30 wins range. It has happened before. Lebron is playing on a GOAT candidate level right now and he makes his teammates better. It isn't just his 30/7/8 and defense.

Take Lebron off the team. How many teams in the L would have a worse best player than Mo Williams? You can't say they are stacked from man 3-down either. Old Shaq? Sideshow Bob? Big Z? Delonte West with all his problems? Can you name 16 teams they would be better than? 20? 25? You don't need to explain it. Just list teams.

I say all these teams in bold clearly>the Cavs without Lebron. Some of the others are debatable. This is speculation. We won't know for sure unless he gets hurt for an extended period of time or leaves in the summer.

Western W ▾ L
LA Lakers C 33 10
Dallas C 28 15
Denver C 28 14
Portland C 26 18
San Antonio C 25 17
Phoenix C 25 19
Houston C 24 18
Oklahoma City C 24 19
Utah C 24 18
New Orleans C 23 19
Memphis C 23 19
LA Clippers C 19 23

Sacramento C 15 27
Golden State C 13 28
Minnesota C 9 35

Cleveland C 33 11
Orlando C 28 15
Atlanta C 28 14
Boston C 28 13
Toronto C 22 22
Miami C 22 20
Charlotte C 21 20
Chicago C 19 22
New York C 17 25
Milwaukee C 17 24

Indiana C 15 28
Detroit C 15 27
Washington C 14 28
Philadelphia C 14 28
New Jersey C 3 39

Last edited by Roundball_Rock : 01-24-2010 at 03:43 AM.
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Old 01-24-2010, 04:06 AM   #39
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Default Re: Artest: Cleveland Is 'Nothing' Without LeBron

I think they'd make the playoffs...


-Smak
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Old 01-24-2010, 04:54 AM   #40
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Default Re: Artest: Cleveland Is 'Nothing' Without LeBron

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILLsmak
I think they'd make the playoffs...


-Smak

There is absolutely no way a team with the trio of a nearly retired Ilgauskas, West, and Williams make the playoffs. I would like to see this team even try to run their offense without LeBron. It would be hilarious. They wouldn't be able to beat the Knicks, either.

Speculation is best made based on talent available/remaining, and not on opinion.
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Old 01-24-2010, 05:00 AM   #41
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Default Re: Artest: Cleveland Is 'Nothing' Without LeBron

1. They are in the east.

2. It's not that somehow every player on the Cavs is a scrub and can only play with LeBron, it's that LeBron is so good that everyone understands they have to play off him.

You don't think Shaq, JJ, Paker (or Moon, or Jawad), West, and Mo would make the playoffs?

They could run a post oriented offense. This is a team of vets who know how to win...

No one player can make that big of a difference in a team.

-Smak
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Old 01-24-2010, 05:05 AM   #42
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Default Re: Artest: Cleveland Is 'Nothing' Without LeBron

Saying that Lebron alone, is responsible for 40+ wins for this team is outrageous on a human scale alone.
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Old 01-24-2010, 05:11 AM   #43
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Default Re: Artest: Cleveland Is 'Nothing' Without LeBron

Cleveland without Lebron is designed to be a great supporting cast, not to run the show on their own, so it's not really a fair question.

But Artest is not wrong. Without Lebron you would be looking at a team where Mo Williams is the #1 option, and Shaq is the only other guy in the starting lineup who can score. I don't see how that team makes the playoffs.

Basically the team they would have to beat for the #8 spot is the Bucks, so which team is better:

Cavs:
PG-Mo Williams
SG-Anthony Parker
SF-Jamario Moon
PF-JJ Hickson
C-Shaquille O'Neal

Delonte West
Anderson Varejao
Daniel Gibson
Zydrunas Ilgauskas

Bucks:
PG-Brandon Jennings
SG-Michael Redd
SF-Carlos Delfino
PF-Ersan Ilyasova
C-Andrew Bogut

Luke Ridnour
Hakim Warrick
Charlie Bell
Luc Richard Mbah a Moute
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Old 01-24-2010, 05:18 AM   #44
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Default Re: Artest: Cleveland Is 'Nothing' Without LeBron

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Old 01-24-2010, 06:05 AM   #45
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Default Re: Artest: Cleveland Is 'Nothing' Without LeBron

Without James the Cavs would struggle to pull out 30 wins. I doubt the playoffs would be feasible. It's not so much that LeBron is worth 35+ wins, it is because without LeBron the team has no facilitator. People bring up Boobie, Mo and Parkers shooting, well how would they be shooting without as many open looks. Mo would be getting doubled every time down the floor, and Shaq would be still Shaq averaging the same numbers. JJ would score much much less and Varajao offensively would be useless as most of his points come off of James passes. Z would probobally just retire, or give up.
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