Who Is the Player From the 90s Thats Gets the Most Overrated Now

[Nevaeh]

Bad examples. Both Shaq and Jordan especially Jordan, were great defenders as well as scorers.

Neither Artest nor Rodman are considered great offesively or even good. A better example would be Rodman and Anthony. Or Mutombo and Rik Smits.

Bird making the all defense second team was more political than merit. The fact that his coach chose to hide him on defnse by putting Mchale or Maxwell on the opposiions best scoring forward says a lot about what his coaches thought about his defense.


Steals has never been an indication of how effective a players defense is.

Thes are elementary arguments bro. You're better than this.





And what makes them better rebounders than Pippen?

Dude, steals are the definition of defensive stops. They stop an offensive play dead in its tracks, and sends the ball in the opposite direction. The f@ck wrong with you lately?

[DatAsh]

Not even gonna argue/ debate w/ you guys, I know what the hell I saw:

Pippen 28 VS Denver
Pip 25/9/9/6 VS Nets
Pip 39/10/9/6 VS Hawks

Pippen was arguably the best NBA player in 1994 and I'm still mad that Phil chose Toni over Pip in that situation considering Pippen put that team on his back the whole season, then in the PO's goes to someone else. The play worked but still...

What do you mean you guys? I'm certainly not on the side of the guy you were arguing with.

Why bow out so easily though? If you really feel that Pippen was a better player than Olajuwon that year, why not try to make your case?

I would probably have Pippen at 3-5 that year.

Guys that were clearly better(in my opinion),

Olajuwon
27pts 12reb 4ast 1.5stl 4blk
+Much better scorer
+Much better rebounder
+Much better defender(one of the best ever)
+Took a team with less talent than what Pippen was working with and led
them to an NBA championship
-Pippen was a better passer/playmaker

Robinson
30pts 12reb 5ast 1.5stl 3blk
+Much better scorer
+Much better rebounder
+Much better defender
-Crumbled in the playoffs(probably had something to do with his half-court game)
-Great passer for his size, but not on Pippen's level


Guys that were arguably better,

O'Neal
29pts 13reb 2ast 3blk
+Much better scorer(extremely efficient)
+Much better rebounder
-Lacked defensive effort
-Inexperience?
-No where near the passer that Pippen was

Ewing
+Better Scorer
+Better Rebounder
+Lead his team to the finals
+Better Defender(anchored one of the best defensive teams ever)
-No where near the passer that Pippen was

I'd probably put Pippen at 3 behind Olajuwon and Robinson, and I feel like most people would say that even I overrate him. No way in hell does 94 Pippen go above absolute peak Olajuwon, I'm not even sure peak Jordan was better than 94 Olajuwon(it's definitely close), but everyone has their own opinions.

If you really feel that Scottie Pippen has a case over absolute peak Olajuwon, share it, don't just bow out.

[DatAsh]

Dude, steals are the definition of defensive stops. They stop an offensive play dead in its tracks, and sends the ball in the opposite direction. The f@ck wrong with you lately?

Steals are a form of defensive stop, as is a missed shot + defensive rebound, block + recovery, offensive foul, shot clock violation.

What he said is correct though. High number of steals doesn't equate to god defense. There certainly exists some causality, but it's by no means implied.

[Hands of Iron]

What do you mean you guys? I'm certainly not on the side of the guy you were arguing with.

Why bow out so easily though? If you really feel that Pippen was a better player than Olajuwon that year, why not try to make your case?

I would probably have Pippen at 3-5 that year.

Guys that were clearly better(in my opinion),

Olajuwon
27pts 12reb 4ast 1.5stl 4blk
+Much better scorer
+Much better rebounder
+Much better defender(one of the best ever)
+Took a team with less talent than what Pippen was working with and led
them to an NBA championship
-Pippen was a better passer/playmaker

Robinson
30pts 12reb 5ast 1.5stl 3blk
+Much better scorer
+Much better rebounder
+Much better defender
-Crumbled in the playoffs(probably had something to do with his half-court game)
-Great passer for his size, but not on Pippen's level


Guys that were arguably better,

O'Neal
29pts 13reb 2ast 3blk
+Much better scorer(extremely efficient)
+Much better rebounder
-Lacked defensive effort
-Inexperience?
-No where near the passer that Pippen was

Ewing
+Better Scorer
+Better Rebounder
+Lead his team to the finals
+Better Defender(anchored one of the best defensive teams ever)
-No where near the passer that Pippen was

I'd probably put Pippen at 3 behind Olajuwon and Robinson, and I feel like most people would say that even I overrate him. No way in hell does 94 Pippen go above absolute peak Olajuwon, I'm not even sure peak Jordan was better than 94 Olajuwon(it's definitely close), but everyone has their own opinions.

If you really feel that Scottie Pippen has a case over absolute peak Olajuwon, share it, don't just bow out.

One of the silliest things I've heard in a long time.

[DatAsh]

I was a defensive stopper first and foremost, I know the value of defense.

Pippen wasn't a better defender than MJ, deal with it.
In what years? He was easily the better defender throughout the second three peat, and most would say that Pippen from 93-95 was a better defender than any version of Jordan.

Pippen at his best was never a "dominant" player.
What do you mean by dominant? Pippen at his best was a top five, and arguably top two player in the league. How is that not dominant? Is Kevin Durant not dominant?

Pippen at his best was never a consistent "great scorer"
Depends on how you define great, but I guess I can agree with that.

Pippen is a role player, a sidekick…. deal with it.
Role player? No way in hell was Pippen a role player. A role player is someone who stands in the corner and takes wide open set shots. A good role player is someone who does the above for 10-14 points a game. A role player is someone who plays great defense and does nothing else, or rebounds the ball, and does nothing else. Pippen did everything you can do as a basketball player and did it above average to great. Pippen was a superstar that just so happened to be playing with a better superstar.

Pippen was a GREAT complimentary player, he was pivotal in aiding MJ lead the Bulls. MJ would've probably never won without him. But Pip was not on his level, Magic's, Bird's. He did a lot of things very good, but again, he never had the full package. It isn't science, it aint that hard to grasp.
I would argue that Pippen is perhaps the perfect example of a player who did have the complete package. What exactly was Pippen bad, or even below average at?


Pippen= top 5 sidekick of all time

I think you drastically underrate Scottie Pippen. From 92-98, where would you rank him with respect to the rest of the league?

[DatAsh]

One of the silliest things I've heard in a long time.

I'm inclined to agree, but an opinion is just that, an opinion.

[andgar923]

Andgar, that's pretty faulty logic dude.

"What if"?

The point is Pippen DID develop under those conditions, he came along way from the young skinny guy w/ no heart getting gripped up and smacked by Oakley all w/ a smile on his face.

Pip was a legit MVP and arguably the best player in the NBA in '94 when Jordan left, immature when Jackson drew up the last play for Kukoc vs the Knicks in the PO's but he had a point to react that way, it just looked worse when Toni made the shot but bottomline is, he helped carry Mike to those last 3 titles as much as Mike carried him.

"What if"? What if Bird was never drafted while STILL IN COLLEGE getting funneled to the Celtics, what would he have become w/ out those HoF'ers? Does he go onto be the "Legend"? What is Magic w/ out the Lakers? Etc etc?

Horrible post for a dude w/ all those stars, Ed McMahon from Star Search would be disappointed in you.

The 'what if' scenario is to counter Round Mound's insecurity.

He always brings up Pippen as the reason MJ won and Charles didn't, as if Chuck never had a player that was an all star. Charles simply didn't make other players greater like MJ eventually did.

He and others make it appear as tho Pip was gonna be Pip regardless of who drafted him. But we saw how he struggled, we saw how he had to adopt both mentally and physically, we saw him grow up. So it's easier for one to do a 'what if' scenario when we have that to base it on. They on the other hand are transposing the Pip that was, and just assumed that he'd be that way regardless. Which is in their way a shot at MJ and an excuse to prop up their fav player.

Charles has used that excuse as well "Well Mike had Pip" as if HE would've made Pip the player he became

[PK3434]

John Stockton

Who overrates John Stockton?

Sure, there is debate in the all time rankings thread about his place but thats mostly between a few spots.

[PJR]

The 'what if' scenario is to counter Round Mound's insecurity.

He always brings up Pippen as the reason MJ won and Charles didn't, as if Chuck never had a player that was an all star. Charles simply didn't make other players greater like MJ eventually did.

He and others make it appear as tho Pip was gonna be Pip regardless of who drafted him. But we saw how he struggled, we saw how he had to adopt both mentally and physically, we saw him grow up. So it's easier for one to do a 'what if' scenario when we have that to base it on. They on the other hand are transposing the Pip that was, and just assumed that he'd be that way regardless. Which is in their way a shot at MJ and an excuse to prop up their fav player.

Charles has used that excuse as well "Well Mike had Pip" as if HE would've made Pip the player he became

And the funny thing is, Charles actually got the play with Pip in Houston, and Pip ended up eviscerated him for being a shitpoor leader, and basically called him out for being everything Jordan was not.

Jordan helped mold Pippen without question(as far as his approach to the game).

[Hands of Iron]

The 'what if' scenario is to counter Round Mound's insecurity.

He always brings up Pippen as the reason MJ won and Charles didn't, as if Chuck never had a player that was an all star. Charles simply didn't make other players greater like MJ eventually did.

He and others make it appear as tho Pip was gonna be Pip regardless of who drafted him. But we saw how he struggled, we saw how he had to adopt both mentally and physically, we saw him grow up. So it's easier for one to do a 'what if' scenario when we have that to base it on. They on the other hand are transposing the Pip that was, and just assumed that he'd be that way regardless. Which is in their way a shot at MJ and an excuse to prop up their fav player.

Charles has used that excuse as well "Well Mike had Pip" as if HE would've made Pip the player he became

Charles ought to be fortunate for what happened with the travesty in the 1993 semi-finals between Houston/Seattle or he may not of even seen a Finals appearance. The Suns had one of the most talented teams in the league 1993-95. They blew 2-0 and 3-1 leads in 1994/1995 to Olajuwon's Rockets with Barkley at the helm. Even recall Barkley wiffing on FT's that would've closed it out in '95 in Game 5.

[clayton]

Jordan. He only started to win rings once Bird was on his way out. So, he's not as invincible as some old-nostalgic fan claims he was.

[Nevaeh]

And the funny thing is, Charles actually got the play with Pip in Houston, and Pip ended up eviscerated him for being a shitpoor leader, and basically called him out for being everything Jordan was not.

Jordan helped mold Pippen without question(as far as his approach to the game).

Key words right here. I remember reading how it used to get on MJ's nerves when Pip and Grant wouldn't take their jobs in the NBA seriously, and how he basically had to wait for them to "catch up" mentally, which was in large part due to how Jordan elevated the Bulls practices.

People seem to forget that Pip had to guard MJ, one of the most potent and quick perimeter players ever, during practice day in day out, not to mention Jordan riding him mentally and emotionally as well. I'm sure Pip heard his share of " You ain't nothing but a sidekick, you weak minded muthaf@cka" enough from Jordan himself during practice, to light that fire under his ass to want to get better and to prove Jordan wrong.

[97 bulls]

Key words right here. I remember reading how it used to get on MJ's nerves when Pip and Grant wouldn't take their jobs in the NBA seriously, and how he basically had to wait for them to "catch up" mentally, which was in large part due to how Jordan elevated the Bulls practices.

People seem to forget that Pip had to guard MJ, one of the most potent and quick perimeter players ever, during practice day in day out, not to mention Jordan riding him mentally and emotionally as well. I'm sure Pip heard his share of " You ain't nothing but a sidekick, you weak minded muthaf@cka" enough from Jordan himself during practice, to light that fire under his ass to want to get better and to prove Jordan wrong.

How much of Pips develpoement was a direct result of Jordan and or a natural progression of maturity.


As far as trash talk? Come on. All player do that. No amount of Jordans trash talking to Pippen would've ever amounted to the leap Pippen made to go from a college walk on/waterboy, to a top five pick in the NBA.

By all accounts, they both made each other better. I firmly believe Pippens team mentality along with Jacksons preaching, rubbed of on Jordan as well.




And for the life of me. Please answer why couldn't Jordan make any other player better? Orlando woolridge? Pete Myers? Matt Stigenga? Keith Booth? Brad Sellers? All wing players. Why was Pippen the only player Jordan was able to make an allstra hofer?


Why didn't he make BJ Armstrong a kevin Johnson type PG?

[RRR3]

How much of Pips develpoement was a direct result of Jordan and or a natural progression of maturity.


As far as trash talk? Come on. All player do that. No amount of Jordans trash talking to Pippen would've ever amounted to the leap Pippen made to go from a college walk on/waterboy, to a top five pick in the NBA.

By all accounts, they both made each other better. I firmly believe Pippens team mentality along with Jacksons preaching, rubbed of on Jordan as well.




And for the life of me. Please answer why couldn't Jordan make any other player better? Orlando woolridge? Pete Myers? Matt Stigenga? Keith Booth? Brad Sellers? All wing players. Why was Pippen the only player Jordan was able to make an allstra hofer?


Why didn't he make BJ Armstrong a kevin Johnson type PG?

I was born in 1992, so I can't speak on this the way you guys can, but, assuming MJ did help Pippen, then it may have been because Pippen always had the talent to be a HOFer, but needed help "unlocking" it, per se, so MJ didn't really "make" Pippen so much as helped push him towards reaching his potential. I'm assuming the other guys didn't have anywhere near Pippen's potential. This is just a speculation BTW.

[G-train]

I was born in 1992, so I can't speak on this the way you guys can, but, assuming MJ did help Pippen, then it may have been because Pippen always had the talent to be a HOFer, but needed help "unlocking" it, per se, so MJ didn't really "make" Pippen so much as helped push him towards reaching his potential. I'm assuming the other guys didn't have anywhere near Pippen's potential. This is just a speculation BTW.

Yeah Pip was the 5th pick in the draft and had amazing physical attributes and guard skills. He was always going to be a good player. Playing with another great player does help with development, but it also means you have to meet the challenge personally as well. Pip would have got the Kwame treatment, as would have Horace. It's up to the player how they respond. Pip took the challenge and grew into a great player. Plenty of other talents played with challenging stars and were happy to sulk and rest on laurels.