Does anyone 25 and over actually think Kobe, LeBron, or Wade is better than MJ?

[DaHeezy]

I have a question. If internet was as common then as it is now, how do you think the perception on Jordan would have changed? When I watched basketball and wasn't an "internet person" I just watched and appreciated players games a lot more. Probably due to the fact that I got all of my sporting news through the media, and they like to hype players up. Also all of these hardly noticeable details about players can be found which would never happen if you just watched the game. I think it wouldn't be near as, "OH GOD IF YOU SAY SOMEONE COULD BE BETTER THAN JORDAN YOUR SO STUPID HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAH *closes mind*". If internet had been around during the entirety of basketball, so many things would be different. Players today are under this giant microscope that players back then were not even close to.

I want to know other's thoughts on this

If internet was a factor than we can see how progressively has gotten bigger, faster, stronger, and because we as fans want to see excitment, old school players don't have a chance.

[DaHeezy]

Dude you have gotta be f@cking kidding me. Did you read the title of this thread? How many debate threads have been started by Pro-Kobe people on these boards claiming Kobe> MJ? I don't care if they're doing it for the lulz or if they actually believe it, but to question a person's sanity for "taking the bait" and debating someone who starts a thread to get a reaction out of people is to take the responsibility away from the person who started the debate in the first place.

I know that when I'm looking at my screen I'm not "Imagining" the black letters against the white background. It's just that we now have a new generation of trolls who like to start shit, get called on it and have their favorite player embarrassed to hell and back, then turn around and pout about it.

If you don't want a response, don't type the sh!t on the screen and press "submit". Not that complicated.

I agree somewhat, but in essence if somebody is trying to debate on the stance of Kobe, then they shouldn't be chastized for it. Problem is when somebody does start their stance they are immediately brutalized for it because Jordan fans start to become volaite. That's probably why most Kobe stans back off. It's a futile debate because now it becomes a war of insults.
Yeah there are Kobe idoits, and I'll be the first to admit that the majority of Kobe stans are trolls, but from what i obsevre there are far more close minded Jordan fans than Kobe idiots.

[Nevaeh]

I doubt you posted that jokingly. In fact, a poster on another board has exactly what you posted as their signature, leading me to believe that deluded Kobe fans actually believe that it's a very close comparison when in fact it's not. If you did post it as a joke, then at least others will get to see the magnitude of the difference between peak Kobe and peak Jordan.

This is exactly the point I made earlier. All because of a troll (Kobe Fan or otherwise), a can of worms was opened to once again show how statistically Kobe falls short of MJ. Then Kobe Stans will get mad at you for posting things they don't want to hear/read, not blaming the troll who caused your response post in the first place.

Simple, you troll you get served with facts that make your favorite Icon look like a chump. Such is life I reckon.

[andgar923]

How very disingenuous of you. First off, you're comparing MJ's numbers while playing on a GREAT team in the Triangle (and actually running the Triangle, not letting Kobe freelance and gun whenever he wanted to like Jackson did in '06/'07) to a guy playing on a wretched team and being allowed to play free-flowing, gunning basketball. These aren't even comparable situations at all. How'd Kobe's numbers look in 2008 when he was actually on a championship caliber team? Yeah, that's what I thought. But anyway...

Even looking past this, there are more reasons why your post is disingenuous. For starters, Kobe played nearly 4 more mpg than Jordan, a 10+% increase. Here's how their numbers look adjusted for per40 minutes:

1991 Jordan per40 - 34.1 pts/6.5 reb/6.0 ast/2.9 stl/.8 blk/2.7 TO/53.9% FG/60.5% TS/31.6 PER/125 ORtg/20.3 Win Shares

2007 Kobe per40 - 31.0 pts/5.6 reb/5.3 ast/1.4 stl/.5 blk/3.2 TO/46.3% FG/58.0% TS/26.1 PER/115 ORtg/13.0 Win Shares


As you can see, Jordan trounces Kobe in ppg (+3.1), averages more rpg (nearly an extra rebound per 40) and more apg (+.7 apg, again, despite playing with another ballhandler/high apg player in Pippen at 6.2 ast), more than doubles Kobe in steals, and averages .3 more bpg as well as over half a TO per40 less than Kobe. And he does this while being vastly more efficient (even relative to the league), which magnifies his scoring advantage even more.

This is saying nothing of his LARGE defensive advantage - this is peak Jordan defensively here, folks. Dominant individual and team/help defense and obscene disruption from the perimeter. Check the 1991 series vs. Detroit or LA if you need any proof that MJ's defensive impact was in a completely different league from 2007 (or any version of) Kobe's defensive impact.

I know you don't want me to compare their playoff numbers from these years, because it makes the comparison even more lopsided, but let's do so:


1991 Jordan's playoffs per40 - 30.7 pts/6.3 reb/8.3 ast/2.3 stl/1.3 blk/2.5 TO/52.4% FG/60.0% TS/32.0 PER/127 ORtg/4.8 Win Shares

2007 Kobe's playoffs per40 - 30.3 pts/4.8 reb/4.1 ast/.9 stl/.4 blk/4.1 TO/46.2% FG/56.1% TS/24.1 PER/111 ORtg/.5 Win Shares


Jordan leads slightly in ppg, but the staggering gap in efficiency (+6% FG/+4% TS) magnifies that, meaning that on an equal efficiency basis, Jordan would have scored at least 3-4 more ppg. Then on top of that, MJ gets you 1.5 more rpg, more than doubles Kobe in assists, and averages 2.5 times as many steals and 3+ times as many blocks as Kobe. He does all of this while turning the ball over 1.6 fewer times per40. Keep in mind that the 2007 Suns were no better defensively than any team MJ faced in the '91 playoffs, and as compared to 2 of his 4 opponents, were substantially worse.

The 1991 Laker team that Jordan averaged 31.2 pts/6.7 reb/11.2 ast/2.8 stl/1.4 blk/56% FG/66.4% TS against had averages of 105 DRtg/94.1 Pace/99.6 opp. ppg/46.2% opp. FG% as compared to 2007 Phoenix's averages of 106.4 DRtg/95.6 Pace/102.9 opp. ppg/45.7% opp. FG%. Yet Kobe didn't come within a country mile of having the type of performance Jordan did - go figure. Maybe if Kobe were, you know, actually as good as Jordan, the Lakers would have won that series vs. Phoenix.

I say all this to preempt any and all objections, disingenuousness, and red herrings that idiots like Fatal9 will throw out to try to distract you from the fact that 1991 Jordan was in a different league than even 2007 Kobe (which itself can be argued to be a top 20 season by a non-big in league history). Jordan's 1991 is still the gold standard for a perimeter player in terms of the overall combination of stats/impact/two-way dominance/team success/accolades, and likely will be for a very long time.


Let's now take a look at why Fatal9 chose MJ's 1991 season instead of his 1990 campaign. Clearly, he did so because MJ's numbers were somewhat depressed in 1991 by his then career-low 37 mpg versus Kobe's 41 mpg. Let's look at 1990 Jordan and 2007 Kobe's per40 averages for the regular season:

1990 Jordan per40 - 34.4 pts/7.1 reb/6.5 ast/2.9 stl/.8 blk/2.7 TO/52.6% FG/60.6% TS/31.2 PER/123 ORtg/19.0 Win Shares

2007 Kobe per40 - 31.0 pts/5.6 reb/5.3 ast/1.4 stl/.5 blk/3.2 TO/46.3% FG/58.0% TS/26.1 PER/115 ORtg/13.0 Win Shares


So we see that Jordan averaged 3.4 more points, 1.5 more reb, 1.2 more ast, more than DOUBLED Kobe's steals, averaged .3 more bpg, and averaged a half less TO per40, all while DESTROYING Kobe in terms of efficiency (even relative to their respective league averages) and advanced stats by every metric. Again, not even close. And also again, keep in mind that this is MJ's defensive peak - Kobe is not in the same league in terms of defensive impact as 1990 Jordan.

Now let's look at their playoff numbers per40:


1990 Jordan's playoffs per40 - 34.8 pts/6.8 reb/6.5 ast/2.7 stl/.8 blk/3.3 TO/51.4% FG/59.2% TS/31.6 PER/120 ORtg/4.0 Win Shares

2007 Kobe's playoffs per40 - 30.3 pts/4.8 reb/4.1 ast/.9 stl/.4 blk/4.1 TO/46.2% FG/56.1% TS/24.1 PER/111 ORtg/.5 Win Shares

Here Jordan enjoys a 4.5 ppg edge on vastly better efficiency (hence the actual edge is even larger than the 4.5 ppg suggests), grabs you 2 more rebs, gets 2.4 more assists, triples Kobe in steals, and doubles him in blocks, all while turning the ball over .8 fewer times per40 than Kobe. All of these advantages are, of course, reflected in the PER and ORtg in particular. And again, Jordan has a substantial defensive edge in this season over 2007 Kobe. Substantial. So again, not really a contest.


In summary: lol @ this dude posting BS numbers and thinking he'd get away with it. Like I said, prime/peak Kobe is about 90% of prime/peak Jordan, possibly a shade less than 90% if we're talking absolute peak season(s). I was actually being generous, as the numbers above prove.

Oh my...... this shit even hurt me.

[Nevaeh]

See, here is where I beg to differ. I see Jordians becoming more hostile when the arguments do become more pro-Kobe. This has been fact since day one on ISH. It's even more apparent when even with my stance which has been unsided i've become labelled a Kobe stan. Because I say Kobe CAN be debated? It deosn't make me a stan. It makes me a sports fan. The way things go around here is that Kobe stans try to voice that Kobe can be better and Jordians try to put a censorship on it. Kobe stans get WAAAYYY more slack for their statements than vicesa versa

Okay then, here's your chance to set the record straight based on your "unsided" perception of things. What arguments do you see for Kobe being comparable to MJ as far as impact on the League? You don't even have to include accolades if you don't want to.

Because so far all I've heard from you is a bunch of whining about what other people think of MJ in relation to Kobe as far as career achievements and impact go. Someone picks Jordan over Kobe and you're mad about it, yet you're not even a fan of either player.....OK

Ahh, you've payed attention to my other threads. No, it's not close minded at all. In fact it's an arguable point for Jordan. But Jordains should not get butt hurt if somebody brought up Russell has won 11 (against Wilt Chamberlain) in merely 13 seasons. See what I'm saying?

It's not about being "butthurt" at all. You DO realize you're on an open (meaning non-team specific) NBA message board where people debate over various players right?

Lebron vs. Bird
Iverson vs. Thomas
Shaq vs. Wilt
Dirk vs. Bird

Ring any bells?

Again it's not. Because it IS subjective. In every case of sports debate, especially team sports there are so many factors that make it non-definitive.

OK then, if you actually believe that, then what does it matter to you if someone says "Player X is better than Player y"? You don't have a vested interest in the argument anyway. Just stay out of threads where debates are happening. Simple.

Like I've said before, I'm also a hockey fan, and Gretzky's gap of greatness well exceeds that of Jordan's in his own sport, yet arguing a Crosby, Lemiuex, Orr seems way more acceptable. Jordian's cannot accept it, especially with Kobe.

And this line right here proves you're nothing but a hypocrite because I can simply say "well your opinion is subjective" like you've been doing other posters regarding MJ. How do you know Gretzky had a bigger impact on hockey than Jordan did on the NBA? how would you prove it?

I've mention before is I haven't even taken a stance on who's better between Kobe and Jordan. In all honesty if you put a gun to my head I'll take Jordan. But because I've said Kobe is debatable it makes me a Kobe stan? Doesn't make sense. Again, there are good NBA Jordan fans. then there are the Jordians.

It's not about you being a stan for either player in your case. My point is if you have no vested interest in either player, then why are you so bent out of shape about people who do have a vested interest in Kobe or Jordan as fans?

That's like me having no interest in hockey at all (which I don't), yet I still get angry over people picking Gretzky as the Greatest Hockey Legend over Lemiuex. If people are debating those guys hey, more power to them

[DaHeezy]

[QUOTE=Nevaeh]Okay then, here's your chance to set the record straight based on your "unsided" perception of things. What arguments do you see for Kobe being comparable to MJ as far as impact on the League? You don't even have to include accolades if you don't want to.[QUOTE]

I've already stated it in this tread. intangibles. That is always up fpr debate

Because so far all I've heard from you is a bunch of whining about what other people think of MJ in relation to Kobe as far as career achievements and impact go. Someone picks Jordan over Kobe and you're mad about it, yet you're not even a fan of either player.....OK

You've completely misintepreted my POV. I've already stated I have no problem with a person picking Jordan over Kobe. Ido have a problem when a Jordain imposes himself with insults and so the other can't have a POV. Now before you continue on about me, please reread my statement

It's not about being "butthurt" at all. You DO realize you're on an open (meaning non-team specific) NBA message board where people debate over various players right?

Lebron vs. Bird
Iverson vs. Thomas
Shaq vs. Wilt
Dirk vs. Bird

Ring any bells?

And all these arguments seem to be more managable. I do invest in those threads and I can rnjoy them and generally they are more well thought out with respectable advisaries. If a Kobe and jordan thread played out the same way I'd be surprised

OK then, if you actually believe that, then what does it matter to you if someone says "Player X is better than Player y"? You don't have a vested interest in the argument anyway. Just stay out of threads where debates are happening. Simple.

It doesn't matter. In fact I like rationalized debates. that's why I joined this message board

And this line right here proves you're nothing but a hypocrite because I can simply say "well your opinion is subjective" like you've been doing other posters regarding MJ. How do you know Gretzky had a bigger impact on hockey than Jordan did on the NBA? how would you prove it?

You're entitled to that POV. But let's say I was like rsponded," You're a dumbass, Gretzky did this......." That makes me no better than a Jordian

It's not about you being a stan for either player in your case. My point is if you have no vested interest in either player, then why are you so bent out of shape about people who do have a vested interest in Kobe or Jordan as fans?

You obviously haven't been following what I said

That's like me having no interest in hockey at all (which I don't), yet I still get angry over people picking Gretzky as the Greatest Hockey Legend over Lemiuex. If people are debating those guys hey, more power to them

And yet I'd still say you are entitled to that POV. As long as you can support it ratioanally without resorting to insulting someones intellegence. It's called sports and that's the beauty of it. It's all up for debate. But you have completely missed my point. No reasoning with you guy. You Da Man.

It doesn't matter what i've said because you've obviously taken your stance on my opinion which is completely wrong. I bet a a more rational poster would be able to point that out.

[Ne 1]

.....

Dude your making great points, but honestly your just wasting your time. The person your arguing with is a known Kobe hater and has some weird, borderline psychotic obsession with Kobe Bryant and Kobe/Laker fans.

YMF, still on that Defense Ratings kick, which still doesn't excuse nor explain Kobe's Goofy shot selection

Being a Kobe fan must be like having a woman who calls you a punk, cheats on you, runs up your credit card debt, won't cook or clean, but because she can give "good head", she's the "Greatest Woman In the World" to you. .

I can't stand him! He's peanut head chucker and he thinks he's all that.

[Smoke117]

Fatal9 just got owned so bad that he should be banned. Great post oldschool. Maybe I should stop arguing with you about pippen

Not to mention that 2007 is post rule change so Kobe had it a lot easier as far as scoring and still wasn't nearly as good.

[Nevaeh]

Dude your making great points, but honestly your just wasting your time. The person your arguing with is a known Kobe hater and has some weird, borderline psychotic obsession with Kobe Bryant and Kobe/Laker fans.

Nice try at making up that last quote punk. In THIS thread, which was titled "Happy 48 MJ" you stepped your ass in the thread trying to get sh!t started and got embarrassed like you always do. I called your GOD a "Peanut Head Azz Chucker" to be precise, unlike the b!tch way you're trying to make it appear. Funny you still remember that line though. Struck a nerve son?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...=209341&page=3

Quote:
NE1:

So we gonna act like nikkas wearing a jersey means anything?

These cac's don't know sh*t. I remember going to the bar with a pirates fitted cap and some white dude approached me like I was actually a fan of the team.

Just look at bow wow. He said ''Kobe is average'' but look at the jersey he got on:

Originally Posted By Nevaeh:

It's not about Bow Wow. It's about how you Kobe Stans can't keep your narrow azzes out of threads that have nothing to do with him. The thread title is "Happy 48 Michael Jordan" PERIOD. Now, if it was " 48 MJ vs. 32 Kobe" I can see a point.

But you guys insist on f@cking up any and every thread with that peanut head azz chucker, and in the process, continue to get served in threads that could've been peaceful. Nobody mentioned Kobe, made any comparisons or anything. Your right hand man NoName needs to get therapy with that level of hatred he has for Mike, straight up.

As far as Kobe in the MJ jersey, the point is kobe looked up to Mike, and everybody knows it. If you calling Kobe God, Ima let you know where your God got got his swag from The pics wouldn't have been brought out had your boy kept his mouth shut. If you don't like MJ cool, but the personal attacks are getting ridiculous.

Called that n!gga that sh!t one time, and you're still sore about it.

Oh yeah, your GOD didn't quite make it to 6 this year either now DID HE??

Originally Posted By: NE1:





1 more to go.

From that same thread By The Way...........