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Old 11-19-2018, 09:32 PM   #136
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Default Re: more proof the beatles are the GOAT band

Speaking from experience...

Im not a pianist. But I've sat in the studio with amazing musicians that played in bands, church choirs, etc yet couldn't compose a beat to save their lives.

I'd watch dudes that didn't know how to place their hands on a keyboard make better beats than them.

It's about 'creativity' at the end of the day.

That's what the Beatles did.
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Old 11-19-2018, 10:03 PM   #137
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Default Re: more proof the beatles are the GOAT band

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Yeah dude, I've heard all that shit. And... it isn't.

Go read about the time those two met. Jimi showed up to jam with Cream and immediately slayed a song that Clapton refused to play because he found it too difficult.

Clapton is known because of his musical sense and style of playing, not for virtuoso talent. There are guitar players all over the world that no one has ever heard of who can shred through anything Clapton has ever played. In terms of technical skill, he really wasn't that impressive. It actually serves as a great example of how technical skill is really not what makes music good.

I know that story. I'm not saying it's contrived. But you're not listening: the solo on Those Were the Days is as fast as anything Hendrix recorded in the studio and released to the public. That's my point. Slowhand is a sarcastic nickname. Is it really as fast as Beginnings? Yes. It's not as technically demanding, but it's as fast. Clapton got a sound out of it that's sick as **** such as on Presence of the Lord. Of course it doesn't rival Jimi's sound, though. And no one can get their guitar to sound as LOUD as Hendrix's (although, it should be noted that Cream's music was soundproofed after recording, so that is partly why). Just like no one can get their bass guitar to sound as LOUD as Entwistle's.
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Old 11-19-2018, 10:09 PM   #138
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Default Re: more proof the beatles are the GOAT band

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An example:

Yes, King Crimson, Tull, Rush are all 'technically' better musicians than Pink Floyd.

Pink Floyd is my fav artist of all time, but honestly... they aren't as sophisticated as the other groups. They simply can't play as well as the others.

Mason's drums are as basic as can be.
Wright's keyboards aren't the greatest
Waters is very basic bass player
Gilmour however is an elite player, but still below some of the other lead guitarists if we want to talk technically.

But...

Pink Floyd simply made better 'music'.

No they didn't have complex keyboard riffs.
The drums weren't Buddy Richesque.

Yet their music as a whole is more memorable. The group is usually regarded as the best prog rock group of all time by majority of fans, writers, and artists.

Their music has influenced millions upon millions of fans around the world more than any other prog rock artists.

I don't think Pink Floyd has really influenced as many bands as you think, mate. It just hasn't. Must point out that their stage shows have probably been one of their biggest influences, though.
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Old 11-19-2018, 11:37 PM   #139
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Default Re: more proof the beatles are the GOAT band

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I don't think Pink Floyd has really influenced as many bands as you think, mate. It just hasn't. Must point out that their stage shows have probably been one of their biggest influences, though.


kinda hard not being influential when you've sold an estimated 75million units.

DSOTM continues to sell and influence current and will influence future artists for decades to come.

And again, it aint like either the Beatles or Pink Floyd were horrible musicians or songwriters. They were still very very good, just not technical savants.
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Old 11-19-2018, 11:51 PM   #140
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Default Re: more proof the beatles are the GOAT band

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kinda hard not being influential when you've sold an estimated 75million units.

DSOTM continues to sell and influence current and will influence future artists for decades to come.

And again, it aint like either the Beatles or Pink Floyd were horrible musicians or songwriters. They were still very very good, just not technical savants.

Well, I guess it depends on where you're ranking them all-time in influence. There's tons of artists I'd rank ahead. We'd hear their sound more in the influenced bands, yes? I'm not saying there's none, just… quite a bit less than The Beatles, Elvis Presley, The Kinks, The Who, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Jimi Hendrix, James Brown, Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly, The Rolling Stones, Cream, to name a few.
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Old 11-20-2018, 12:01 AM   #141
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Default Re: more proof the beatles are the GOAT band

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Well, I guess it depends on where you're ranking them all-time in influence. There's tons of artists I'd rank ahead. We'd hear their sound more in the influenced bands, yes? I'm not saying there's none, just… quite a bit less than The Beatles, Elvis Presley, The Kinks, The Who, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Jimi Hendrix, James Brown, Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly, The Rolling Stones, Cream, to name a few.

Sure, the pioneers of rock (Chuck, Buddy, Elvis) have influenced more artists since they started everything so everything by default is based on their work.

Floyd does not have the same influence as say Stones, Beatles, Zep because they're a more 'niche' genre. Their music isn't as radio friendly because it's usually longer, have more instrumentals, is more abstract for the general audience to digest. Yet even then, they've managed to sell tons and tons of records. Even then they still managed to be played in the radio far more than any other prog-rock artist (which my argument was based on).
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Old 11-20-2018, 09:50 AM   #142
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Default Re: more proof the beatles are the GOAT band

On what basis do we even call Floyd prog? I would call them psychedelic and post-psychedelic rock music, classic rock in retrospect (not really even a genre) and beyond that, they are just floyd.

Prog is more like KC and Rush, no? The most distinguishing feature of prog is odd counts, and aside from money... im pretty sure every floyd song is in 4 or 6
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Old 11-20-2018, 10:01 AM   #143
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Default Re: more proof the beatles are the GOAT band

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Originally Posted by Prometheus
On what basis do we even call Floyd prog? I would call them psychedelic and post-psychedelic rock music, classic rock in retrospect (not really even a genre) and beyond that, they are just floyd.

Prog is more like KC and Rush, no? The most distinguishing feature of prog is odd counts, and aside from money... im pretty sure every floyd song is in 4 or 6
Ummm, have you heard them?

They are universally known as a prog rock group by just about everyone.
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Old 11-20-2018, 10:14 AM   #144
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Default Re: more proof the beatles are the GOAT band

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Ummm, have you heard them?

They are universally known as a prog rock group by just about everyone.

Yeah I am wondering what aspect of their sound is akin to prog bands?

Their harmonies are mostly simpler, many songs involve few, if any, key changes.

Their rhythms are 99% in 4/4 or 6/8

Many of their songs, the most popular ones especially, are simple rock ballads with just a 4 chord progression, no key changes, verse/chorus/verse/chorus/solo/chorus/coda. that is not prog, that's just rock

the only reason i think people call them prog is because of longer compositions like atom heart mother, echoes, shine on, etc. But long songs does not = progressive rock, and the majority of their discography doesn't fit that profile anyway

none of this is to disparage either prog or floyd either. gun to my head, they are my favorite band, and i love what prog stands for. I just dont hear it, or understand it from a musical pov that they should be called prog.
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Old 11-20-2018, 05:21 PM   #145
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Default Re: more proof the beatles are the GOAT band

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Originally Posted by Prometheus
On what basis do we even call Floyd prog? I would call them psychedelic and post-psychedelic rock music, classic rock in retrospect (not really even a genre) and beyond that, they are just floyd.

Prog is more like KC and Rush, no? The most distinguishing feature of prog is odd counts, and aside from money... im pretty sure every floyd song is in 4 or 6

Probably, and certainly at least by the time they started experimenting with concept albums with DSotM. Yeah, when they started they were certainly psychedelic and space rock, but that was with Syd Barrett at the ship's helm...

I sort of agree, but the most distinguishing feature of progressive rock is usually 1) there's some type of concept/theme to the albums and 2) that the musicians are classically trained to some extent. The odd metres are kind of inherently one of the genre's features due to the classical training prerequisite.

Classic rock is a radio format, no genre, nothing more, nothing less.
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Old 11-20-2018, 05:24 PM   #146
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Default Re: more proof the beatles are the GOAT band

Not much about Pink Floyd is really akin to prog rock, it's just the concept album, which they might be the GOAT at, which keeps them within the genre. Like, if you were to draw a Venn diagram, I don't think they'd venture too far into prog rock.
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Old 11-25-2018, 01:23 PM   #147
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Default Re: more proof the beatles are the GOAT band

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Originally Posted by 72-10
But then Captain Beefheart would have more record sales to prove his influence upon the listeners. I mean, they'd be at least a little higher, right?

They're probably influenced by Frank Zappa, too.

You have a bit of a point, though. The Velvet Underground didn't sell very well, but just about every successive music artist that bought their debut album was influenced by it.
Not necessarily. It's dependent on people's tastes. There's plenty to like in his two failed pop efforts, Bluejeans & Moonbeams and Unconditionally Guaranteed, but they're no Trout Mask Replica. Safe as Milk is actually the perfect pop album (Trout Mask is also pop, the discordant yields to familiarity upon several listens; it's more rewarding, precisely because it requires a greater investment from the listener). Ice Cream for Crow is probably more difficult listening, by this stage Beefheart had settled on spoken-word (don't miss the underlying music - the entirely instrumental song, Semi-Multicolored Caucasian, is a particular highlight). Throughout, here's the one thing that Beefheart retained: authenticity. The artist as art.

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Originally Posted by Overdrive
Askew and abstract. There are others out there, but I think we talked about that in another thread already. Offbeat is pretty much african influenced.
Yes, we have. My point is that Beefheart was the conduit. Beefheart himself assimilated these influences (it wouldn't have been limited to Muddy Waters, Howlin Wolf, etc.) I seldom hear bands say they were influenced by The Beatles. What, their success? When Beefheart influences you, it's right there. You want me to put together a list of folks he's inspired? We can do better than Wikipedia.


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Originally Posted by Overdrive
Beefheart is definately a musician's musician. Never seen someone irl, who listened to him without playing an instrument. VU is a tad more popular.
Beefheart didn't really know much about music; he understood art. He could cultivate his pieces through fairly talented musicians. The OP wants to wank on about how popular The Beatles are... and will be, which to me is erroneous extrapolation. Years from now, people may come to realise Beefheart's genius... because, you know, he was one.
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Old 11-25-2018, 01:36 PM   #148
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Default Re: more proof the beatles are the GOAT band

Been a while since I listened to Trout Mask Replica or Safe as Milk. Did Beefheart play any of the instruments on his albums?

Plenty of great artists and ****loads of mediocre artists have been deeply influenced by the Beatles. Some of the most prominent ones would be The Rolling Stones, Nirvana, Electric Light Orchestra, Queen, Muse, Radiohead, the whole Britpop scene, such as Blur, and Elliott Smith. Jimi Hendrix said he was trying to beat the Beatles. If you were to watch The Ed Sullivan Show, you would see the profound musical impact the Beatles had on the music scene at the time, all kinds of novelty and pop artists would cover their songs.

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Old 11-25-2018, 04:14 PM   #149
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Default Re: more proof the beatles are the GOAT band

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Originally Posted by Bimbo Coles
Not necessarily. It's dependent on people's tastes. There's plenty to like in his two failed pop efforts, Bluejeans & Moonbeams and Unconditionally Guaranteed, but they're no Trout Mask Replica. Safe as Milk is actually the perfect pop album (Trout Mask is also pop, the discordant yields to familiarity upon several listens; it's more rewarding, precisely because it requires a greater investment from the listener). Ice Cream for Crow is probably more difficult listening, by this stage Beefheart had settled on spoken-word (don't miss the underlying music - the entirely instrumental song, Semi-Multicolored Caucasian, is a particular highlight). Throughout, here's the one thing that Beefheart retained: authenticity. The artist as art.

Yes, we have. My point is that Beefheart was the conduit. Beefheart himself assimilated these influences (it wouldn't have been limited to Muddy Waters, Howlin Wolf, etc.) I seldom hear bands say they were influenced by The Beatles. What, their success? When Beefheart influences you, it's right there. You want me to put together a list of folks he's inspired? We can do better than Wikipedia.


Beefheart didn't really know much about music; he understood art. He could cultivate his pieces through fairly talented musicians. The OP wants to wank on about how popular The Beatles are... and will be, which to me is erroneous extrapolation. Years from now, people may come to realise Beefheart's genius... because, you know, he was one.

What I mean is that none musicians rarely know Beefheart, atleast from my experience. Never heard anyone say he picked up instrument x, because of him. He's there when you already dove into music, he influences when you already play.
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