Put prime Hakeem in Bill Russell's era

[jlauber]

what the hell kind of logic is that?
hakeem didn't even grow up playing basketball. he started playing bball later than 99% of the nba players would.
Now ppl are using his rookie year against KAJ (one of the greatest of all time) to judge how good he would be in the weak ass era of the 50s/60s? GTFO

hakeem >> wilt/russell

Logic??? You do realize that a 38 year old Kareem (yes 38 years old) absolutely MURDERED a a 23 year old Hakeem that season (his SECOND season BTW)??? 33 ppg on .634 shooting, with TWO 40+ point games??? This was a an OLD Kareem who could barely get off the floor to get 6 rpg. Just what would a 23 year old Kareem (who LED the NBA in scoring at 32 ppg on .580 shooting, and won the MVP and FMVP) have wrought on a 38 year old Hakeem, who was just a SHELL????

And while Dickwad brings up that Hakeem outplayed that Kareem in the post-season, my god, Kareem STILL had TWO games of 33 and 31 in that series, and averaged 27 ppg. And I haven't seen the FG%'s, either, but I wouldn't be surprised if Kareem outshot him by a large margin. Once again, though...downright embarrassing that a 23 year old Hakeem couldn't OVERWHELM a 38 year old Kareem. And once again...how bad would a 23 year old Kareem have battered a 38 year old Hakeem?

BTW, that OLD Kareem also annihilated Ewing in that same season with a game in which he outscored him, 40-9, and outshot him, 15-22 to 3-17.)

Weak ass era of the 60's??? Kareem had TWO post-seasons, in his PRIME, and against an aging Thurmond, who held Kareem to 22.8 ppg in both, and on .405 and .428 shooting.

Against a Wilt in the twilight of his career? Kareem shot .429 against Wilt in their one H2H game in '69. He shot .437 against Wilt in the '71 regular season (a PRIME Kareem), and then only .481 against him the playoffs. Dickwad brings up Kareem's 40 ppg season on 50% shooting in the REGULAR season of '72 against Wilt. Well, for one, Kareem had a 50 point "stat-padded" and "shot-jacked" game against a Laker team that BLEW OUT his Bucks (and BTW, Wilt outrebounded Kareem in that game, 25-8.) In fact, Wilt led his Lakers to a 4-1 record against Kareem's 63-19 Bucks in that regular season. THEN, in the post-season, Kareem shot .457, including .414 over the last FOUR games of that series...all while Wilt was knocking his skyhook into the seats. And, how about Wilt in his LAST season against Kareem. He held Kareem to .450 shooting in SIX games, all while shooting .737 himself.

One can only wonder just how bad Kareem would have shot against Russell and his Celtics in the 60's.

Juding by just how much a PRIME Kareem struggled against the best centers of the 60's, and how much an OLD Kareem just SHELLED the best centers of the 80's (and 90's)...well, I think you know exactly where this is going.

[Kblaze8855]

At age 38(coming up on 39) Kareem put up:

25/8/6 on 62% vs Mark Eaton
25/5/4 on 59% vs Eaton
35/7/3 vs Hakeem/Ralph
20/4/4 on 5-19 vs Eaton(only bad game vs these guys)
26/8 on 59% vs Ewing
38/5 on 63% vs laimbeer
40/4/6 blocks on 68% vs Ewing
46/11 on 70% vs Hakeem/Ralph
43/7 on 67% vs Hakeem/Ralph again


Does kinda make you wonder how Thurmond and Wilt types help him in check in his prime.

[jlauber]

At age 38(coming up on 39) Kareem put up:

25/8/6 on 62% vs Mark Eaton
25/5/4 on 59% vs Eaton
35/7/3 vs Hakeem/Ralph
20/4/4 on 5-19 vs Eaton(only bad game vs these guys)
26/8 on 59% vs Ewing
38/5 on 63% vs laimbeer
40/4/6 blocks on 68% vs Ewing
46/11 on 70% vs Hakeem/Ralph
43/7 on 67% vs Hakeem/Ralph again


Does kinda make you wonder how Thurmond and Wilt types help him in check in his prime.

Thurmond was truly a marvel. He and Kareem went H2H in some 50+ games, many of which were near the end of Nate's career, and yet Kareem's high game against him was only 34 points. In fact, he had quite a few games of under 20 against Thurmond. Not only that, but he seldom shot 50% against Thurmond, and in fact, had two straight playoff runs of .405 and .428 against him.

I have said it before, but FG%'s went thru the roof in the 80's. And the centers were among the biggest beneficiaries. Kareem had EIGHT seasons of .564 or better, and his FOUR highest season's, including one of .604, and another of .599 at age 37. Yet, in the 70's, he had seasons of .539, .529, .518, and even .513.

Gilmore went from from seasons of .522, .559, and .575, and in his prime in the 70's, to SIX straight seasons of .670, .652, .626, .631, .623, and .618. Think about this...in his 76-77 season, at age 27, he averaged 18.6 ppg on .522 shooting. In his 81-82 season, at age 31, he averaged 18.5 ppg on .652 shooting. And then, at age 35, he averaged 19.1 ppg on .623 shooting.

And it went the other way too. Players that came into the NBA in the 80's, generally declined in FG% into the 90's. Here again, centers were also affected.

It's no coincidence that Hakeem's highest FG% came in his ROOKIE season, when he shot .534. Why? Because it occurred in the 84-85 season, or the absolute zenith of NBA efficiency (.492.)

Ewing had his three highest seasons from 87-88 thru 89-90 (.555, .567, and .551), after that he had a dramatic drop. He even had seasons in the 90's of under 50%.

David Robinson came into the league in the late 80's, and in his first three seasons, he shot .531, 552, and .551. From 92-93 on...a steady decline.

Why?

Meanwhile, in the early 60's, in was just the opposite. Even GREAT players were shooting relatively poorly. Baylor had a season of .401. Havlicek had one of .399. West, with the picture perfect jump shot, had two straight seasons of .419 and .445. Even Wilt, who would go on to blow away the league in terms's of efficiency, had a rookie season of .461.

I could give many more examples of both. The league averages don't lie. The NBA in the early 60's was very poor in terms of FG%'s, and it was never higher than in the 80's.

I bring that up only because there are those that just assume that you could take any modern player who shoots 50% and drop him into the early 60's, and that he would dominate. However, that player would have to deal with a ball that was not uniform (I believe G.O.A.T dug up the fact that it was not uniform until 1970), and there is footage of players playing with near bald basketballs. Some were lighter, and some were heavier. I remember playing in city leagues with lopsided ones.

And PHILA has posted another important drawback that those players had to endure. COLD and BREEZY arenas. Some were downright FRIGID. Most all of us have played outside, and the cold affects the ball dramatically. And, of course, the wind affects it dramatically. PHILA even pointed out that there were floors with dead-spots and some with nails popping out.

Then there was what I believe to be the major reason why players shot so poorly...the BRUTAL schedule. For example, in Wilt's '62 season (and in a season in which he missed a TOTAL of EIGHT minutes), he had a TON of B2B games. Not only that, but he played in six separate runs of "three-in-a-row." But it gets even worse. He had another THREE separate runs of "four-in-a-row." AND, he even had another separate string of FIVE-IN-A-ROW, and NONE of them included any home B2B's.

And, the lanes were PACKED in that era, too. There was no 3pt shot, and opposing defenses collapsed on the better centers. There was a reason that, aside from Wilt, there was only ONE season, in the entire decade of the 60's, in which a center averaged 20+ FGAs, and it was Bellamy's 61-62 season (23 FGAs.)

Factor all of the above with much worse traveling conditions and accomodations, along with players being asked to play more minutes (and at a higher pace), AND, being asked to play with INJURIES, with poorer medical technology...and there is just no way that Hakeem, taken from his prime, would be shooting anywhere near what he shot in the 80's and 90's. Given the fact that he was generally around 30-40 points higher than the league average in the 80's and 90's...and given the fact that the NBA was shooting from between ,410 thru .446 in the decade of the 60's (and obviously worse early on), I suspect that he would have been around a 44% to 48% shooter in that decade. So, yes, he would have scored more (slightly higher pace and being asked to play more minutes), but his numbers probably would not have been much better than 30-33 ppg at his peak.

I suspect a PEAK Hakeem would have averaged around 33-20 .475 in his best seasons in that decade. And with Russell, Wilt, and Thurmond, he would have only been about the 4th best defensive center in the league.

[DCL]

they were all whining to themselves that old bald ass sky hooking muthafugga...

[millwad]

Logic??? You do realize that a 38 year old Kareem (yes 38 years old) absolutely MURDERED a a 23 year old Hakeem that season (his SECOND season BTW)??? 33 ppg on .634 shooting, with TWO 40+ point games??? This was a an OLD Kareem who could barely get off the floor to get 6 rpg. Just what would a 23 year old Kareem (who LED the NBA in scoring at 32 ppg on .580 shooting, and won the MVP and FMVP) have wrought on a 38 year old Hakeem, who was just a SHELL????

And while Dickwad brings up that Hakeem outplayed that Kareem in the post-season, my god, Kareem STILL had TWO games of 33 and 31 in that series, and averaged 27 ppg. And I haven't seen the FG%'s, either, but I wouldn't be surprised if Kareem outshot him by a large margin. Once again, though...downright embarrassing that a 23 year old Hakeem couldn't OVERWHELM a 38 year old Kareem. And once again...how bad would a 23 year old Kareem have battered a 38 year old Hakeem?

Pure bullshit again.
It's funny, I bet you even haven't seen the series and we are talking about rookie Hakeem and 2nd year Hakeem and by the end of his 2nd year he absolutely trashed Kareem and the Lakers.

Like in final game of the series where 2nd year pro Olajuwon who was no where close his prime put up 17 points in the 3rd quarter, it was pure domination and the Lakers and Kareem could do nothing about it.

And it's funny, Hakeem toying Kareem for real is not outplaying but Wilt getting outscored by 23 points per game while getting outshot and outassisted is Wilt "schooling" and "crushing" Kareem. Get real, you old fart.

And have you realized that you always talk about stats? You haven't seen the series AT ALL, you can't even point out anything in this series Olajuwon did good or anything about the defense they tried to put up on Olajuwon and still he just went around them and trashed them.

And again, this was 2nd year pro Olajuwon. Hakeem in his prime was better in every part of the game.

[millwad]

And Jlauber always spams about how close it was between Kareem and Akeem in '86 playoffs, just to make it clear, "close" was the last thing that should be used to define Akeem's pure dominance.

They've come in waves, a gold and purple Pacific of defenders—Kurt Rambis, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Maurice Lucas, Mitch Kupchak. [B]All have tried to stop the Houston Rockets' Akeem Olajuwon, and all have failed. They've fronted him and backed him, elbowed him out of position, yanked him to the floor, sent him to the free-throw line and moved their quick-handed guards, Magic Johnson and Byron Scott, down low to double-and triple-team him. Better they should have tried to tie his shoelaces together

Nothing has worked against Olajuwon, a mixture of brute and ballet dancer, a center so swift and so strong he can kill you softly or violently.

Defend the NBA title? Puh-leese. The next words out of Los Angeles might well be no mas. "I know Kareem won't give up," said Olajuwon, "but I don't think they can win three in a row."

Not if Akeem were to continue at his latest implausible pace, anyway. He scored 40 and 35 points last weekend at the Summit in Houston as the young Rockets, having suddenly changed from diapers to combat fatigues, beat the Lakers twice to take a 3-1 lead in the Western Conference finals. Next up was a game in the Forum on Wednesday, but even there the Lakers were not safe. Houston beat L.A. 112-102 in Game 2 on Tuesday of last week in that very arena, a result that heralded the changing of the guard in the West that the Rockets obviously had in mind - SI

Here you can read the rest of the article and I can give you many more just to shut you up..: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...54/1/index.htm

That's from SI and this was before game 5 where Hakeem just trashed Kareem and the Lakers again and in the third quarter in that game which also came to be the last of the series, Hakeem put up 17 points. 17 points by a 2nd year pro against the reigning worldchamps... IN ONE QUARTER.

So much for "Akeem getting trashed" in his 2nd year as a pro when the kid absolutely toy'd the worldchamps and Kareem. Don't be butthurt now, after all, you can bring up the regular season games of Olajuwon's rookie season if that makes you feel better? We all know that you're all about regular season stats since that's when Wilt always killed his competition while gently regressing in the playoffs, the sucker even got a lower PPG average than Olajuwon while shooting on worse FG%, haha..

Olajuwon killed the Lakers in '86, deal with it.

[PTB Fan]

He'd have been a terrific player. His skills will translate everywhere well, but would be less physically gifted IMO.

[PTB Fan]

And Jlauber always spams about how close it was between Kareem and Akeem in '86 playoffs, just to make it clear, "close" was the last thing that should be used to define Akeem's pure dominance.



Here you can read the rest of the article and I can give you many more just to shut you up..: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...54/1/index.htm

That's from SI and this was before game 5 where Hakeem just trashed Kareem and the Lakers again and in the third quarter in that game which also came to be the last of the series, Hakeem put up 17 points. 17 points by a 2nd year pro against the reigning worldchamps... IN ONE QUARTER.

So much for "Akeem getting trashed" in his 2nd year as a pro when the kid absolutely toy'd the worldchamps and Kareem. Don't be butthurt now, after all, you can bring up the regular season games of Olajuwon's rookie season if that makes you feel better? We all know that you're all about regular season stats since that's when Wilt always killed his competition while gently regressing in the playoffs, the sucker even got a lower PPG average than Olajuwon while shooting on worse FG%, haha..

Olajuwon killed the Lakers in '86, deal with it.

Great post. Although it was close, i agree that Hakeem was having his way with the LA defense

[millwad]

Great post. Although it was close, i agree that Hakeem was having his way with the LA defense

It wasn't close, my friend.
Watch the games, they are all on youtube and Hakeem demolished the Laker big men. No one thinks that series was close, at least none of us who saw it.

[Fazotronic]

Logic??? You do realize that a 38 year old Kareem (yes 38 years old) absolutely MURDERED a a 23 year old Hakeem that season (his SECOND season BTW)??? 33 ppg on .634 shooting, with TWO 40+ point games??? This was a an OLD Kareem who could barely get off the floor to get 6 rpg. Just what would a 23 year old Kareem (who LED the NBA in scoring at 32 ppg on .580 shooting, and won the MVP and FMVP) have wrought on a 38 year old Hakeem, who was just a SHELL????

And while Dickwad brings up that Hakeem outplayed that Kareem in the post-season, my god, Kareem STILL had TWO games of 33 and 31 in that series, and averaged 27 ppg. And I haven't seen the FG%'s, either, but I wouldn't be surprised if Kareem outshot him by a large margin. Once again, though...downright embarrassing that a 23 year old Hakeem couldn't OVERWHELM a 38 year old Kareem. And once again...how bad would a 23 year old Kareem have battered a 38 year old Hakeem?

BTW, that OLD Kareem also annihilated Ewing in that same season with a game in which he outscored him, 40-9, and outshot him, 15-22 to 3-17.)

Weak ass era of the 60's??? Kareem had TWO post-seasons, in his PRIME, and against an aging Thurmond, who held Kareem to 22.8 ppg in both, and on .405 and .428 shooting.

Against a Wilt in the twilight of his career? Kareem shot .429 against Wilt in their one H2H game in '69. He shot .437 against Wilt in the '71 regular season (a PRIME Kareem), and then only .481 against him the playoffs. Dickwad brings up Kareem's 40 ppg season on 50% shooting in the REGULAR season of '72 against Wilt. Well, for one, Kareem had a 50 point "stat-padded" and "shot-jacked" game against a Laker team that BLEW OUT his Bucks (and BTW, Wilt outrebounded Kareem in that game, 25-8.) In fact, Wilt led his Lakers to a 4-1 record against Kareem's 63-19 Bucks in that regular season. THEN, in the post-season, Kareem shot .457, including .414 over the last FOUR games of that series...all while Wilt was knocking his skyhook into the seats. And, how about Wilt in his LAST season against Kareem. He held Kareem to .450 shooting in SIX games, all while shooting .737 himself.

One can only wonder just how bad Kareem would have shot against Russell and his Celtics in the 60's.

Juding by just how much a PRIME Kareem struggled against the best centers of the 60's, and how much an OLD Kareem just SHELLED the best centers of the 80's (and 90's)...well, I think you know exactly where this is going.

jesus, you don't even try to think about it. You just read stats and make conclusions.
Thats why i can't take you seriously.
Hakeem faced experienced, big and skilled competition. First he had to Learn the game befor becoming a force.
Kareem entering the league in 1969 being a athletic GIANT dude, was an instant dominant force in the Basketball world.
This fact alone destroyes your conclusion of "wilt > rookie Kareem = wilt > olajuwon beacause kareem > rookie olajuwon".
WTF is that? Do you read this shit yourself? That makes no sense at all.

You jerking off all night watching those stats on nba reference never made you think why kareem, who made significant improvements over his whole career, put up those kind of numbers in his first years and than just stays the same or even get worse?

And what has a 23 year old Kareem being the better player against a 38 year old Hakeem to do with anything? Its a fact that Olajuwon declined faster. So what? I said Hakeem > Wilt and what you do is showing me how much better Kareem was. Did i say that i think Kareem > wilt?

I bet if a big extreme rare athletic hakeem would have played in the 40s, and dominate wilt in his rookie year without any footage and only watched live, you would make the same retarded conclusion and call Hakeem the best center ever.

[Rake2204]

At first I wasn't quite sure how Hakeem Olajuwon would fare against Bill Russell and his teammates. But then I found this video and it's pretty much indisputable evidence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeTTM7nE6mQ

[HighFlyer23]

he would've murdered those 60s ****

it was like prototype basketball back then

[millwad]

He'd have been a terrific player. His skills will translate everywhere well, but would be less physically gifted IMO.

Oh, I missed this one. Hakeem's physic was amazing, dude, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

And less physically gifted than who? Chamberlain and Russell or in general?

[jlauber]

jesus, you don't even try to think about it. You just read stats and make conclusions.
Thats why i can't take you seriously.
Hakeem faced experienced, big and skilled competition. First he had to Learn the game befor becoming a force.
Kareem entering the league in 1969 being a athletic GIANT dude, was an instant dominant force in the Basketball world.
This fact alone destroyes your conclusion of "wilt > rookie Kareem = wilt > olajuwon beacause kareem > rookie olajuwon".
WTF is that? Do you read this shit yourself? That makes no sense at all.

You jerking off all night watching those stats on nba reference never made you think why kareem, who made significant improvements over his whole career, put up those kind of numbers in his first years and than just stays the same or even get worse?

And what has a 23 year old Kareem being the better player against a 38 year old Hakeem to do with anything? Its a fact that Olajuwon declined faster. So what? I said Hakeem > Wilt and what you do is showing me how much better Kareem was. Did i say that i think Kareem > wilt?

I bet if a big extreme rare athletic hakeem would have played in the 40s, and dominate wilt in his rookie year without any footage and only watched live, you would make the same retarded conclusion and call Hakeem the best center ever.

Let's make this as simple as we can for the mentally challenged here...

First of all, give me a list of all of the NBA players who played to age 38, and compare it to ALL of those that have played in the NBA. Maybe 1-2%?

Then, let's take that list of those NBA players who managed to make it to age 38, and let's it break it down to those that were better players, at age 38, than they were at age 23.

As great as Kareem was at 38, and he was a better player than Hakeem was at 23, he was nowhere near as quick, fast, nor as athletic as he was at age 23. Nor was he anywhere near as dominant, either. Granted, he wasn't as strong at 23, but strength was never one of his attributes. Powerful centers gave him trouble his entire career. Thurmond and a considerably past his prime Wilt. Gilmore battled him as well as anyone in the 70's. And a prime Moses physically pounded Kareem.

Even Wilt, who many considered would have been great into his 40's, was nowhere near as quick, athletic, nor as skilled at age 36, as he was at 23.

Again...give me a list of those that were better NBA players at age 38, than at 23.

[eliteballer]

...and Moses Malone gave Kareem the business in the 83 Finals. No one thinks Moses was quite as good as Hakeem.

...and Kareems Bucks DID beat Wilts Lakers in the playoffs.

See how those comparisons DONT work.