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Old 09-04-2006, 04:58 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jailer
the move for tj ford alone guarantees a good off season.He is gonna electrify toronto.

no it doesn't... I still would rather have Villanueva...
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Old 09-04-2006, 05:05 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brwnman
no it doesn't... I still would rather have Villanueva...

Take it back!
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Old 09-04-2006, 05:09 PM   #18
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rahter have both and no bargnani, although tj isnt worth the #1 pick would have traded it for him and something else
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Old 09-04-2006, 07:32 PM   #19
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Hindsight is always 20/20. Granger is going to be a good maybe even great player. But at the time he was slipping because of knee concerns. Babcock could have easily grabbed him only to have Granger blow his knee out in summer league. Graham tested the most atheletic player in the draft, put up good numbers in college and was drafted to gives us a two way wing player that we needed. Graham has some potential, although when it comes to polish and general basketball IQ I have my doubts if he will ever come around. But, at the time Graham was viewed as a safe pick with good potential. The draft is always a gamble, you cant be sure what you are getting with every pick. Trades on the other hand, thats were Babcock really stunk.
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Old 09-05-2006, 09:40 AM   #20
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Brwnman did I answer your question about the cap space? What are your thoughts?
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Old 09-05-2006, 09:47 AM   #21
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Yah the knee problem came like in the last day before the actual draft. You can argue with me here but had Granger been given the minutes Charlie V was given last year, GRanger would have been 2nd in ROY votings, the guy is a stat stuffer and yes he would have been a great SF for us. GRanger actually wanted to be here too!! I think had the knee problem surfaced 2 weeks before the draft, GMs wouldn't have paniced as much... Its fairly common for athletes to have knee problems.. esp in basketball as long as it is not serious.. even healthy players coming iinto the league can develop knee problems.. as long as the good outweighs the cons, then yah Babcock made a mistake... and Grahmam was a mistake too.. the guy is another Corliss Williamson but with more range. That being said, I wouldn't have used the pick on Green either..either taken Jarrett Jack or David Lee
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Old 09-05-2006, 10:03 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RapsFan
Is anyone else still pissed by the selection of Joey Graham in last years draft, specifically ONE SPOT before Danny Grainger???

I know I definitely am. Another move by Babcock the total idiot.

Here we are with an improved roster. However, we're still not certain about who will be in our starting rotation along with TJ/Mo/Bosh and Rasho. Will Parker play along with Mo? Maybe go smaller with Fred Jones? This discussion is still going on, while Joey Graham sits on our pine. We're wondering if PJ Tucker will also be stealing Joey's mins.

Had we taken Grainger, like all Raptor fans though we should, but I guess it made too much sense, we would have our starting SF for the next 12 years!!! He is exactly what we need. Gritty, defensive, athletic but not inept on offense. This guy will be starting for the Pacers this year, helping them to try and win a playoff series. Us? Well, we're still searching for our starting SF.

I love that Raps, and I really hope BC can turn this ship around. But Babcock just killed us in so many ways. BC opted for Bargs this year, instead of filling the hole on the wing, which is fine....but just imagine we had Grainger up front for the next 10 years with Bosh and Bargs.....!!!!!! TJ running the point. All we need is a dead eye marksman at the 2 and we would be very solid.

Hindsight is great but it does not work in the real world.

You could blame Isiah Thomas for drafting Damon Stoudamire and Tracy McGrady and for Glen Grunwald for getting Vince Carter because in the end all 3 of these guys eventually bolted Toronto and left Toronto to struggle. None of them helped the Raptors win a championship.

You have to look at all the information you had up to the time of the draft. Graham came from a solid program and played against stronger and higher ranked teams than Granger did throughout their careers. And there is probably information Babcock had and other GMs had that fans do not know about. Perhaps there were injury worries or character worries or something else.

Explain how Granger was also passed up by teams before the Raptors picked Graham. Granger was projected to be a higher pick but he was not. (And I assume you were one of fans who criticized Babcock when he first drafted Charlie V instead of Granger?)

No GM is perfect. Not Jerry West, not Bryan Colangelo, etc.

Anyways, let's give these guys a couple of more years to compare against one another. Besides, I have had enough of people ripping Babcock.
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Old 09-05-2006, 10:39 AM   #23
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Second guessing draft picks....what a shocker. Name me a GM and I bet I can go back and find at least 5 bad moves they made......really name ONE. While I have to agree that Babcock wasn't great lets look at what is actually going on rather than the woulda coulda's. Give us a good pick for next year ahead of time so we can let BC know!
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Old 09-05-2006, 10:52 AM   #24
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at the end of the day its no where near the mistake of taking araujo, that can never be topped
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Old 09-05-2006, 10:55 AM   #25
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So in the offseason, August and Sept, we now aren't allowed to talk about some of the obvious mistakes our past GMs have made? Give me a break...this is a Raptor msg. board in the offseason.

Damon, Tmac, Vince etc leaving had nothing to do with a bad draft pick. Hoffa, Jefferies, Alex Rad., Bradley and IMO Graham do. I personally think that despite all that has been said and despite 16 GMs passing on Granger, Babcock made a mistake, b/c Babcock is who I am talking about. It's not like we are being pessimistic and discussing his one error. Babcock made many. Time will tell but if it is a race, Granger has a huge lead at this point in their respective careers and the Raps are still searching for a capable SF of the future.
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Old 09-05-2006, 11:29 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RapsFan
So in the offseason, August and Sept, we now aren't allowed to talk about some of the obvious mistakes our past GMs have made? Give me a break...this is a Raptor msg. board in the offseason.

Damon, Tmac, Vince etc leaving had nothing to do with a bad draft pick. Hoffa, Jefferies, Alex Rad., Bradley and IMO Graham do. I personally think that despite all that has been said and despite 16 GMs passing on Granger, Babcock made a mistake, b/c Babcock is who I am talking about. It's not like we are being pessimistic and discussing his one error. Babcock made many. Time will tell but if it is a race, Granger has a huge lead at this point in their respective careers and the Raps are still searching for a capable SF of the future.

Who said we can't talk about bad draft picks?

My point (opinion) at least was that saying Graham was a bad pick and Granger would have been a much better pick is still too early to conclude. One season does not make a career. And hindsight is 20/20 but does not work.

Stats are not the end all and be all. Abdul Rahim had great stats for several years but never really helped his team win a game and he disappears in the 4th quarter. There are lots of players like this. I am not saying Granger will be like this but who knows. If Granger has better stats but Graham does some of the small things that help the Raptors be a better team than Indiana then who cares.

My point about the draft picks was that in the end despite these players (Stoudamire, McGrady and Carter) being stat stuffers and exciting to watch ultimately they did not lead Toronto to a championship (the goal) and they left Toronto in a worse situation and did not want to be here to stick it out. They were ultimately not character guys. For some GMs that is an important factor in the draft. Having this information now and knowing it can't change the past. Obviously a GM is looking for players that will help lead a team to a championship. My point is hindsight does not work. Babcock took the information he had available at the time as all the GMs did including there being an injury concern about Granger and they made their picks based on the information.

Simple as that. My opinion though.

As for discussing the one 'error'. Is that not what the thread topic was about and started as; discussing Babcock picking Graham over Granger. Nothing else was mentioned.

Last edited by huppcap : 09-05-2006 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 09-05-2006, 12:10 PM   #27
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brwntown, the Carter trade got us Joey Graham, not Charlie (Ford).

Although, being a **** team after trading Vince did HELP get Charlie heh.
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Old 09-05-2006, 02:21 PM   #28
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Don't know what this love affair with Joey Graham is. He is a PF trapped in a SF's body. The guy has strength but lacks quickness and doesn't have great hops either. Most of the time he looks lost in the game. Isn't he already like 24 and he is entering the 2nd year of his career. The guy was suppose to be a player with heart and play good D but I have yet to see either. Seems everyone is expecting a 180 degree turn this season... Hopefully but then again Colangelo was not about to wait hence bringing in Graham 2.0 in Tucker. I rather put my money on Tucker for now.
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Old 09-05-2006, 05:33 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne
brwntown, the Carter trade got us Joey Graham, not Charlie (Ford).

Although, being a **** team after trading Vince did HELP get Charlie heh.


first of all I am brwnman, and not brwntown... I explained why the Carter trade gave us Charlie, because if we didn't have that pick, we would be taking Joey Graham at #7 (our original pick) instead of him at #16 which we got from NJ... because trading Carter for just cap space ie. Shareef Abdur Rahim would leave a void at SF...
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Old 09-05-2006, 05:39 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RapsFan
Brwnman did I answer your question about the cap space? What are your thoughts?

sorry I truly forgot about clearing your doubts... what I meant to say and which I didn't clear up was that Rob Babcock had two choices at the time of making the trade...

it was Carter for Sar straight up which he was about to do but then NJ called and offered three garbage guys and two first round picks and Raptors made that move...

so that Sar trade would give us cap space this year, assuming we didn't use any last year in the off-season... so I was asking would you have Charlie and Graham (which we got in the draft) and cap space 2007, which we would have from the contracts being freed up from Eric Williams, Zo and A. Williams... or cap space right now with only Graham from the draft?

I am leaving out the Jalen Rose trade in this matter...
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