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 09-09-2006, 01:19 PM #196 Sharas Good college starter     Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: B&H Posts: 3,032 also my common sense tells me, if one number can be represented as x/y, and other can't, they aren't equal. and if one number is irrational you can't know its true value and hence can't know what is between it and some other number...and if you can't know it doesn't have to mean there isn't anything
09-09-2006, 01:33 PM   #197
IceMan2
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Sharas also my common sense tells me, if one number can be represented as x/y, and other can't, they aren't equal. and if one number is irrational you can't know its true value and hence can't know what is between it and some other number...and if you can't know it doesn't have to mean there isn't anything
Commen Sense wise, yeah your right...

BUt this is math, and really, commen sense isn't going to work

Mathmatically, if there is no known number between 2 numbers...The numbers must be equal

Sure, you know that 0.8r and 1 aren't the same, despite 0.8r being a repeat...Because you DO know numbers between those 2...Despite one being rational and one being irrational

 09-09-2006, 01:42 PM #198 Sharas Good college starter     Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: B&H Posts: 3,032 you can't prove that there isn't...because you don't know the exact value of one of them. so basically you can't know, that's the whole point of irrational numbers
 09-09-2006, 01:46 PM #199 Jerm I'm trying to improve myself. I'm the new, better Jerm     Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Okokomaiko Posts: 799 I thought I was the chief when it comes to arguments here but Iceman owns me. This guy is clearly wrong but he finds ways to keep asking dumb questions.
 09-09-2006, 01:48 PM #200 IceMan2 Local High School Star     Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,770 Read the last page... It is resolved that you just don't have enough math knowledge, even sharas realizes... And its not dumb questions, its questions you just can't answer...
09-09-2006, 01:49 PM   #201
IceMan2
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Sharas you can't prove that there isn't...because you don't know the exact value of one of them. so basically you can't know, that's the whole point of irrational numbers

There is no number there...SO how can you know the "exact" value of them...

Think about it...THERE IS NO ANSWER....It is 0.9r it goes forever...There is NO WAY that there is a number between them...

09-09-2006, 01:55 PM   #202
Jerm
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by IceMan2 Read the last page... It is resolved that you just don't have enough math knowledge, even sharas realizes... And its not dumb questions, its questions you just can't answer...

ROFL...There is nothing to answer man, 1-.9r has no definite value and I've told you that over and over again. .9r isn't equal to 1 and will never be. END OF STORY!

09-09-2006, 02:10 PM   #203
IceMan2
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Jerm ROFL...There is nothing to answer man, 1-.9r has no definite value and I've told you that over and over again. .9r isn't equal to 1 and will never be. END OF STORY!
Like I said...

Get to Calculus 1st...Or get more math knowledge...It is tough to teach a 1st grader algebra, that is the case here...IT is tough to teach you advanced math as well...

Like you said 1-0.9r has NO VALUE...Because there isn't anything between them...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_t...99..._equals_1

maybe this will help...

Look at it even another way

Its not just .4 repeating, or 0.5r that there are problems with or are messed up...Its just the 0.9r, not other repeating numbers

Look at it this way
you can get 0.4r = 4/9

Or any other repeating number 1/11 = 0.09r

0.5r=10/18

You can get ANY repeating number...But, 0.9r...

And the only way to represent 0.9r is 9/9....or 1

If not tell me a fraction form of 0.9r...All the other repeating numbers have it, what is it for 0.9r?

But like I said...you need more years of math

09-09-2006, 02:20 PM   #204
Jerm
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Dude, I'm a graduate student (although not in maths) but I've gone through a host of Maths courses (Calculus, Algebra, Statistics) and I've never gotten anything less than 87%. I'm a graduate student in economics, you don't have to teach me maths.

Quote:
 Skepticism In education Students of mathematics often reject the equality of 0.999… and 1 for reasons ranging from their disparate appearance to deep misgivings over the limit concept and disagreements over the nature of infinitesimals. There are many common contributing factors to the confusion: Students are often "mentally committed to the notion that a number can be represented in one and only one way by a decimal." Seeing two manifestly different decimals representing the same number appears to be a paradox, which is multiplied by the appearance of the seemingly well-understood number 1.[46] Some students interpret "0.999…" (or similar notation) as a large but finite string of 9s, possibly with a variable, unspecified length. If they accept an infinite string of nines, they may still expect a last 9 at infinity.[47] Intuition and ambiguous teaching lead students to think of the limit of a sequence as a kind of infinite process rather than a fixed value, since the sequence never reaches its limit. Those who accept the difference between a sequence of numbers and its limit might read "0.999…" as meaning the former rather than the latter.[48] All known authorities agree that these ideas are mistaken in the context of the standard real numbers. On the other hand, many of them are partially borne out in more sophisticated structures, either invented for their general mathematical utility or as instructive counterexamples to better understand 0.999…. Many of these explanations were found by professor David Tall, who has studied characteristics of teaching and cognition that lead to some of the misunderstandings he has encountered in his college students. Interviewing his students to determine why the vast majority initially rejected the equality, he found that "students continued to conceive of 0.999… as a sequence of numbers getting closer and closer to 1 and not a fixed value, because 'you haven’t specified how many places there are' or 'it is the nearest possible decimal below 1'".[49] A typical calculator cannot help one reason with 0.999...Joseph Mazur tells the tale of an otherwise brilliant calculus student of his who "challenged almost everything I said in class but never questioned his calculator," and who had come to believe that nine digits are all one needs to do mathematics, including calculate the square root of 23. The student remained uncomfortable with a limiting argument that 9.99… = 10, calling it a "wildly imagined infinite growing process."

That explains why I don't think .999 equals 1 and obviously I'm not alone. I believe .99r is not 1 but the number closest to 1.

09-09-2006, 02:20 PM   #205
raiderfan19
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by IceMan2 Like I said... Get to Calculus 1st...Or get more math knowledge...It is tough to teach a 1st grader algebra, that is the case here...IT is tough to teach you advanced math as well... Like you said 1-0.9r has NO VALUE...Because there isn't anything between them... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_t...99..._equals_1 maybe this will help... Look at it even another way Its not just .4 repeating, or 0.5r that there are problems with or are messed up...Its just the 0.9r, not other repeating numbers Look at it this way you can get 0.4r = 4/9 Or any other repeating number 1/11 = 0.09r 0.5r=10/18 You can get ANY repeating number...But, 0.9r... And the only way to represent 0.9r is 9/9....or 1 If not tell me a fraction form of 0.9r...All the other repeating numbers have it, what is it for 0.9r? But like I said...you need more years of math
Ive had calc 2 and you still arent answering this right. For the purpose of solving problems you CAN subsitute the two because your degree of error is so miniscule that it doesnt matter and 9/9 is not .9r there is NO fraction that represents .9 repeating unless you want to call 9repeating over 10with the 0s repeating a fraction. Even though you can substitute the two in order to solve problems because they are so close, they are not perfectly equivalent and you
should know this its not that hard.

Edit- you made the wikipedia entry yourself didnt you? Wikipedia is NEVER a valid source.

 09-09-2006, 02:27 PM #206 IceMan2 Local High School Star     Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,770 Here is another source From mathmaticians http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/55746.html
 09-09-2006, 02:28 PM #207 IceMan2 Local High School Star     Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,770 All that was just a thing about what students "think" It was an opinion on how students view things...I don't see any math there
09-09-2006, 02:29 PM   #208
IceMan2
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Here is a quote by some one

Quote:
 And thats where the flaw in everyones logic lies. It can't be the trillionth place, it cant be any place. Why cant it? Think of the largest place it could be in. Now, move to the next place. Now to the next place, and the next.... and the next. See where this is going? The numbers are only different if there is a distinguishable difference between the two. The reason 1 = 1 is because 1 and 1 are indistinguishable from each other. The reason .9 (bar) = 1 is because there exists no way in which we can possibly distinguish the difference between the two. Since there is no difference, they are therefor the same number. [Q] The reason we cant represent a difference is because infinity (as represented by bar) is larger than the largest number + 1. And the largest number + 1 becomes infinity, which is still larger than the largest number + 1. Recursivly infinity therefor never ends and thus its impossible to represent it. The number of atoms in the universe are finite, infinity is not. So even using quantum spin states and storing data in every electron in 2 bits for every atom in the entire universe, its not enough to distringuish .9 (bar) from 1. For reference the highest estimate for number of atoms in the universe is 6x 10^79, which is a lot of information. Assuming they all have the average of about 80 electrons (way over estimate, since most matter in the universe is hydrogen) and each electron can store 2 bits thats a grand total of 9.6 x 10^81 bits. If each bit could be used to represent a 0 or a 1 for the function 1 - .9 (bar) then there is still insufficient space to register a difference, we use up all storage space and its full of 0's, thus the numbers are indistinguishable.

09-09-2006, 02:32 PM   #209
IceMan2
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by raiderfan19 Ive had calc 2 and you still arent answering this right. For the purpose of solving problems you CAN subsitute the two because your degree of error is so miniscule that it doesnt matter and 9/9 is not .9r there is NO fraction that represents .9 repeating unless you want to call 9repeating over 10with the 0s repeating a fraction. Even though you can substitute the two in order to solve problems because they are so close, they are not perfectly equivalent and you should know this its not that hard. Edit- you made the wikipedia entry yourself didnt you? Wikipedia is NEVER a valid source.
And I wonder why 0.9r is the only one that can't be represented by a fraction...

ONe of the rules of equality are that 2 numbers are equal if there is nothing between them...5 is equal to 5...10 is equal to 10...Based on that

And until you can name a number between the 2, they are the same...Its commen sense right there too

 09-09-2006, 02:33 PM #210 IceMan2 Local High School Star     Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,770 Another source http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/newton...th/MATH070.HTM

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