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Old 09-16-2006, 07:05 PM   #31
Gotterdammerung
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shepseskaf
I recall that there was some serious static between Rodman and Robinson because Rodman didn't respect him. I had forgotten about that quote, and it just reinforces my point -- D. Rob. is a great person, but was NOT a rock in the clutch, and didn't especially inspire confidence in teammates.

Righteous avatar, Shepseskaf.
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Old 09-17-2006, 01:04 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dejordan
in 1995, the year the admiral won his mvp, hakeem clobbered him in the playoffs, HOWEVER, i agree with BeachPoet on this one. if you look at their accomplishments and stats up until 1994 (that's 9 years into hakeem's career and 6 years into david's) they are very similar. if you actually watched them back in the day, robinson was probably equally intimidating as a basket defender, better at running guys down on the break, and more athletic (in terms of hops and sprinting speed). hakeem actually peaked very late, but at his peak he was a phenominal player, definitely better than david. for the course of their careers though, they weren't so different. i never thought robinson had the need to win though. to me hakeem seemed like more of a leader by example. david made a better second banana.

that is an excellent observation derjdn about the late peak of hakeem. that doesnt happen to the vast majority of players and it makes a huge difference in comparing him to d.rob. especially since the highlight of his career were the championships in 94/95. it is where the rubber hits the road in terms of where respect is ultimately earned in the nba

also, they were different centers in the middle on d. whereas hakeem was like a bear guarding the cubs in the cave the way he patroled the middle; david used his athleticism to help teammates out, block shots and rebound.
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Old 09-17-2006, 01:58 AM   #33
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this is EXACTLY what rainer poet was talking about...

EVERYONE focuses on THAT ONE SERIES.

here is a little analogy:
robinson is to garnett : duncan is to hakeem

this meaning, robinson had a weak supporting cast and a weak coach. it was drob and sean elliot, and sean elliot wasnt even considered an allstar, while hakeem had ralph sampson. same way how duncan had drob.

iam not claiming that robinson was better than hakeem. thats not true...BUT what i am saying is THAT ONE series puts that perception that the entire career was that way, and that was simply not the case.

DRob has owned hakeem a few times but the reason why that one series is blown out of proportion is because DRob was the MVP and it was the playoffs.

Duncan has owned KG but KG has gotten his on duncan a few times...maybe not in the playoffs, but he has owned duncan a few times. same EXACT situation with robinson and hakeem.

the current duncan vs KG is the same exact battle between hakeem vs robinson.

Last edited by SsKSpurs21 : 09-17-2006 at 02:01 AM.
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Old 09-17-2006, 02:24 AM   #34
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The Dream.
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Old 09-17-2006, 07:51 AM   #35
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That series completely changed the two big men's career. At the time, Hakeem and D-Rob were considered to be equals. Living in Houston at the time, you wouldn't believe the amount of jostling between Roc and Spur fans. And when the 95 WCF hit, it was their version of "Ali versus Frasier."

From a personal standpoint, Hakeem has outplayed David. Please check out basketballreference.com and browse through some of their games from 92-95. You will see that David definitely had his times against Hakeem, (3/12/92, 3/12/94) but from that period, Hakeem some pretty serious games against him, too (12/17/92, 4/10/93, 4/25,93, 1/13/95). I saw that game on 1/13/95, it was eerily similar (actually better) to Hakeem's later dominance when the met. Dream played angry that day.

Anyway, I only listed the games where the other completely dominated the opposing player. From that period, Hakeem was better statistically, most of his stats were higher and to his credit, he held Robinson under 50%. But it can't always be about personal stats, because without a doubt, Robinson's team owned the Rockets. The Rockets had the most trouble with the Sonics, number two would have been the Spurs. Anyone telling you the Rocs had an easy time against the Spurs outside of the playoffs are completely full of...

So leading into the WCF, it was no longer about whether the Spurs owned the Rockets or whether Hakeem should have won the MVP, it was about two men staring down at each other for a legacy. If Hakeem won, he would have done to D-Rob, what Michael did to Drexler in 92. "You're a contemporary, but you're not on the same podium with me." If D-Rob won and went on to win the champsionship--sidenote: which the Spurs had a good chance because, of the four great centers, D-Rob's stats and team winning percentage was "better" against Shaq than Ewing and Hakeem--we would probably be talking about D-Rob as being part of the five great centers with Hakeem tossed to the Moses Malones and Patrick Ewings tier.

But as much as I want to stay impartial, it was the big dance. All the other stuff is nice to look at, but when it comes to the big dance and when everything is on the line, you got to win. Hakeem not only won but dominated. When you average ten and a half more points than your opponent, grab more rebounds than him (1.2), have more assists than him (2.3), block more shots than him (didn't list D-Rob's blocks but I remember it being in the mid 2 area, so at least 1.5) and have that many highlights of one man destroying another (which was later revisited when Shaq ate Mutumbo's lunch in the 01 Finals), it's pretty safe to say that history was accurately depicted what transpired between the two. Source:http://www.nba.com/rockets/history/H...-91094-34.html

Before I finish this long post (sorry, I follow the ish but like to read more than post), while it is true that Ralph Sampson was definitely one of the pillars of the team, it was Akeem who gave the Lakers trouble, the one running from the weak side to block Kareem then running the fast break like a guard or chasing after Magic and hassling him on some plays for a steal or two. If anyone could find and post Hakeem's 86 playoff stats between Rocs and Lakers that would be nice.

Last edited by TheFourthCenter : 09-17-2006 at 07:53 AM.
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Old 09-17-2006, 08:21 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFourthCenter
If anyone could find and post Hakeem's 86 playoff stats between Rocs and Lakers that would be nice.

I'd love to see them too, but all I could find were his overall 1986 playoff stats.
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Old 09-17-2006, 09:30 AM   #37
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Well as someone who followed the careers of both of these guys from college to retirement I can say despite the statistical similarities, there is a huge gap in both the domination and intimidation levels as it was even between Duncan and Robinson.

Although Robinson would appear to be a superior player to Duncan if you looked at stats, when you look at what matters and doesnt matter, Duncan is clearly the better player. He also has proven he could win a championship as the best player of his team. Robinson did not get that done.

Back to Hakeem. The fact on Hakeem is he was one of the most intimidating defenders in the history of all levels and styles of basketball. From his U of H days until he retired, Hakeem intimidated not only the post but also the perimeter on occasion. The steals in the backcourt that resulted in breakaway dunks are things of legend. There were many of them in the 86 playoffs. He was a relentless beast who never ever gave up on a play. Robinson was a very good defender with solid fundamentals but guys didnt fear his matchup IMO because he didnt cover the range of the floor that Hakeem did and he didn't have Hakeem's super quick reactionary abilities (what?). They have similar blocks per game numbers but that is very deceiving in comparing these two. Anyway there is no comparison of their overall intimidation IMO.

Offensively Robinson certainly put up the big numbers and he was very skilled as a center but Hakeem had so many shots in his repertoire that he could go to in the clutch. The fear of the dream shake was on par with Kareem's
sky hook. Robinson had a varied arsenal as well but when he got to the most important games he did not have the ultimate answers that produce champions and he did have talent around him equal to what Hakeem had. The Spurs were the favorites to win it all in 1995 and they had the best record in the league. To say this was about one series and one year is to not undertand the significance of it. After that series the impact could be seen on Robinson for years to come. Although he won ships with Duncan, he was reduced to role player when the games were on the line and Duncan took all the big shots.
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Old 09-17-2006, 11:20 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SsKSpurs21
this is EXACTLY what rainer poet was talking about...

EVERYONE focuses on THAT ONE SERIES.

here is a little analogy:
robinson is to garnett : duncan is to hakeem

this meaning, robinson had a weak supporting cast and a weak coach. it was drob and sean elliot, and sean elliot wasnt even considered an allstar, while hakeem had ralph sampson. same way how duncan had drob.

iam not claiming that robinson was better than hakeem. thats not true...BUT what i am saying is THAT ONE series puts that perception that the entire career was that way, and that was simply not the case.

DRob has owned hakeem a few times but the reason why that one series is blown out of proportion is because DRob was the MVP and it was the playoffs.

Duncan has owned KG but KG has gotten his on duncan a few times...maybe not in the playoffs, but he has owned duncan a few times. same EXACT situation with robinson and hakeem.

the current duncan vs KG is the same exact battle between hakeem vs robinson.

sskspur21--- good parallel with duncan/garnett

i am happy that you have given the real essence of the thread a different perspective
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Old 09-17-2006, 11:36 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFourthCenter
That series completely changed the two big men's career. At the time, Hakeem and D-Rob were considered to be equals. Living in Houston at the time, you wouldn't believe the amount of jostling between Roc and Spur fans. And when the 95 WCF hit, it was their version of "Ali versus Frasier."

From a personal standpoint, Hakeem has outplayed David. Please check out basketballreference.com and browse through some of their games from 92-95. You will see that David definitely had his times against Hakeem, (3/12/92, 3/12/94) but from that period, Hakeem some pretty serious games against him, too (12/17/92, 4/10/93, 4/25,93, 1/13/95). I saw that game on 1/13/95, it was eerily similar (actually better) to Hakeem's later dominance when the met. Dream played angry that day.

Anyway, I only listed the games where the other completely dominated the opposing player. From that period, Hakeem was better statistically, most of his stats were higher and to his credit, he held Robinson under 50%. But it can't always be about personal stats, because without a doubt, Robinson's team owned the Rockets. The Rockets had the most trouble with the Sonics, number two would have been the Spurs. Anyone telling you the Rocs had an easy time against the Spurs outside of the playoffs are completely full of...

So leading into the WCF, it was no longer about whether the Spurs owned the Rockets or whether Hakeem should have won the MVP, it was about two men staring down at each other for a legacy. If Hakeem won, he would have done to D-Rob, what Michael did to Drexler in 92. "You're a contemporary, but you're not on the same podium with me." If D-Rob won and went on to win the champsionship--sidenote: which the Spurs had a good chance because, of the four great centers, D-Rob's stats and team winning percentage was "better" against Shaq than Ewing and Hakeem--we would probably be talking about D-Rob as being part of the five great centers with Hakeem tossed to the Moses Malones and Patrick Ewings tier.

But as much as I want to stay impartial, it was the big dance. All the other stuff is nice to look at, but when it comes to the big dance and when everything is on the line, you got to win. Hakeem not only won but dominated. When you average ten and a half more points than your opponent, grab more rebounds than him (1.2), have more assists than him (2.3), block more shots than him (didn't list D-Rob's blocks but I remember it being in the mid 2 area, so at least 1.5) and have that many highlights of one man destroying another (which was later revisited when Shaq ate Mutumbo's lunch in the 01 Finals), it's pretty safe to say that history was accurately depicted what transpired between the two. Source:http://www.nba.com/rockets/history/H...-91094-34.html

Before I finish this long post (sorry, I follow the ish but like to read more than post), while it is true that Ralph Sampson was definitely one of the pillars of the team, it was Akeem who gave the Lakers trouble, the one running from the weak side to block Kareem then running the fast break like a guard or chasing after Magic and hassling him on some plays for a steal or two. If anyone could find and post Hakeem's 86 playoff stats between Rocs and Lakers that would be nice.

4thctr---- thanks for doing some groundwork on the issue. i notice it is your first post and i hope it is not your last. the ish needs enlightenment often.

i dont disagree with you in that the playoff series between them was a major turning point. that is what make hakeem so awesome in that he peaked at a later age than most and did very much outplay d. rob and the rockets win was the frosting

in other places here at ish, i would take hakeem over any other center on the defensive end; i am still pondering the centers on offense

my reason for starting this thread was to engage discussion as to how much the perception from that series has taken away from d.rob's total career in many people's opinion. it might be true with some of the younger guys here who never saw them for the course of their careers


i really liked both of them for different reasons. they both gave me years of nba enjoyment


i dont think this is revisionist history as much as selective emphasis.

a war parallel would be looking at one battle, even a battle as a turning point in a war, as defining the whole war.

there are many other factors that go into how things really are

i am glad that your post gives insight into the "battle" of that specific playoff series as a turning point in comparing the two great centers
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Old 09-17-2006, 12:31 PM   #40
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Hakeem although listed as a 7'0'er was really only 6'10 1/2 but he was alot more physical and played as if he was alot taller than the Admiral who was definitely a tall timber@7'1. Hakeem had that killer combination that disguised him as a finess player from time to time with the footworks he had under the basket that will just about get him out of any defensive pressure applied on him. Hakeem was one of those players that the defenders couldn't lock up, and if you get physical w/him he'll make you pay for it with his ability to take you off w/a dribble drive cause he was a quick center w/a 1st step that will have the defender look like a deer caught in headlights. Hakeem wasn't all about the foot moves he was also a physical speciman that will back you down under the basket w/his physical strength and the meanstreak he had in him. Hakeem the dream olajuwon was also a defensive presence with his ability to block shots and getting every imaginable rebound that came his way, Hakeem imo was one of the top 5 centers to ever play this game ENOUGH SAID!
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Old 09-17-2006, 12:34 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *LAKERS_3_PETE[B
*]Hakeem although listed as a 7'0'er was really only 6'10 1/2 but he was alot more physical and played as if he was alot taller than the Admiral who was definitely a tall timber@7'1.[/b] Hakeem had that killer combination that disguised him as a finess player from time to time with the footworks he had under the basket that will just about get him out of any defensive pressure applied on him. Hakeem was one of those players that the defenders couldn't lock up, and if you get physical w/him he'll make you pay for it with his ability to take you off w/a dribble drive cause he was a quick center w/a 1st step that will have the defender look like a deer caught in headlights. Hakeem wasn't all about the foot moves he was also a physical speciman that will back you down under the basket w/his physical strength and the meanstreak he had in him. Hakeem the dream olajuwon was also a defensive presence with his ability to block shots and getting every imaginable rebound that came his way, Hakeem imo was one of the top 5 centers to ever play this game ENOUGH SAID!


Where did you get this "fact"?

Last edited by XxNeXuSxX : 09-17-2006 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 09-17-2006, 12:46 PM   #42
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hakeem is def not 7 feet. He looked about 6"10.
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Old 09-17-2006, 12:50 PM   #43
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Next to Yao...
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Old 09-17-2006, 12:57 PM   #44
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Quote:
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Next to Yao...

Thats proves it.... Go back to old games and look at him compared to D-Rob and Ewing.
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Old 09-17-2006, 01:14 PM   #45
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to win when it matters most glorifies one's legacy. nobody praises charles barkley the same way one does to jordan/bird/magic cause charles did not win a ring. barkley is one of the greatest players of all time in my book. one of the greatest PF ever play the game. sadfully he could not beat jordan in the finals. he was great but jordan beat him. and that's how sir charles's legacy is written. same as drob, he was amazing in many games but hakeem kicked his ass when it mattered most. that just simply devalued drob's legacy.

though, charles was beaten and drob was owned...
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