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Old 12-30-2008, 11:20 PM   #16
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Default Re: Surprisingly, a John Hollinger article that makes perfect sense.

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Originally Posted by jrcp3
YOU DONT UNDERSTAND RapsFan ..... we are just one piece away ( Wing Player ) from being up there with the top teams in the east, Colangelo has to grow some balls and trade Bargnani for our wing and were set.

If not Bargnani than Kapono/Moon and all them, THIS IS WHY WE HIRED COLANGELO TO MAKE US BETTER AND GET THOSE SPECIAL DEALS LIKE HE DID IN PHX! ****ing Babcock could of signed Jose to a long term deal and trade 1 health injury risk players for each other ......

One wing player does not make this team a legitimate threat in any division. We have to many hole to think that Salmon, or Wallace or even your dream player Miller makes this team a beast in the east.

This team need's major surgery, and I'm not just talking about moving Bargnani, like we could get much for him anyway. This team needs and overhaul. If BC does nothing major in the next two weeks this season will be over.
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Old 12-31-2008, 12:38 AM   #17
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Default Re: Surprisingly, a John Hollinger article that makes perfect sense.

Adding a legit wing player, especially a Miller or Wallace will drastically improve this club. Although we still won't be contenders, so what is the point?
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Old 12-31-2008, 12:47 AM   #18
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Default Re: Surprisingly, a John Hollinger article that makes perfect sense.

I'm starting to lean towards the side that says blow up the team and rebuild... A few more losses and i'll be over the fence.
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Old 12-31-2008, 07:48 AM   #19
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Default Re: Surprisingly, a John Hollinger article that makes perfect sense.

I guess we weren't reading the same article because as much as I agree with most of the article, I don't agree with most of YOU! For those that are interested, here's the first paragraph from the article I read.

1. The greatest reason Toronto changed generals Wednesday is the fact that general manager Bryan Colangelo essentially painted himself into a corner. The Raps already played their trump card this summer by trading T.J. Ford, the expiring contract of Rasho Nesterovic and a first-round pick to Indiana for Jermaine O'Neal. Minus those three assets, the Raps have no tradable pieces left unless they want to nuke the Chris Bosh-Jose Calderon-Andrea Bargnani-O'Neal core they hoped would push them to a deep playoff run this season.

This is a grim reality WE MUST ALL FACE!!! Stop shouting and crying for a trade, minus any one of those four players in a trade package, the Raptore aren't getting that all-star wing player we're all begging for! Colangelo gambled on O'Neal and his contract, the whole organisation and the fans will have to live with the dividens of that trade until the "big" contracts come off the books.

Back to the article, Hollinger pretty much nailed it, unfortunatly it's far from being pretty in Dino-land.

...the fact that general manager Bryan Colangelo essentially painted himself into a corner.

The way I see it, and it'll be the unpopular opinion, Hell, I'm ashamed to be the one be see it this way but there's no way out. The Raptors can't trade to fill any need they have. You cannot get a border-line all-star winger for Kapono, Graham, Parker or Hump. So we settle for less? I'm not for that, I want to best team possible out there. NEXT... Back-up Point guard, that a more realistic target but where does that leave the team? An above-average Point guard situation, with more holes at the 2 and 3, again where's are we going? So here goes... Beside status-quo, The Toronto Raptor's have three options... I don't like any of them...

#1 Chris Bosh is the only untouchable, if Colangelo can find a deal that may inclued Calderon, Bargnani or O'neal that helps the team, he should do it!!! Basically nuking the teams current core and re-tool.

#2 Tank and sell... by the end of the season our depth chart should ony inclued Bosh, O'Neal, Calderon, the rest 3rd stringers and D-leaguers, in return the Raps get picks, picks and more picks.... Re-tool in the draft.

#3 Retool using Bosh as Bait, combined with the team's own picks, Bosh should give at least give the Raps and few years worth of first rounders and maybe 1 or 2 young players.

There I said it!! Hate me, Flame me, Ban me, Make fun of me... Colangelo has a long year ahead of him and too bad for us, we're in for a rocky New Year. More to come...

Oh and I wish all of you a Happy new Year!

Last edited by pocketWs : 12-31-2008 at 07:59 AM.
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Old 12-31-2008, 09:58 AM   #20
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Default Re: Surprisingly, a John Hollinger article that makes perfect sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketWs
I guess we weren't reading the same article because as much as I agree with most of the article, I don't agree with most of YOU! For those that are interested, here's the first paragraph from the article I read.

1. The greatest reason Toronto changed generals Wednesday is the fact that general manager Bryan Colangelo essentially painted himself into a corner. The Raps already played their trump card this summer by trading T.J. Ford, the expiring contract of Rasho Nesterovic and a first-round pick to Indiana for Jermaine O'Neal. Minus those three assets, the Raps have no tradable pieces left unless they want to nuke the Chris Bosh-Jose Calderon-Andrea Bargnani-O'Neal core they hoped would push them to a deep playoff run this season.

This is a grim reality WE MUST ALL FACE!!! Stop shouting and crying for a trade, minus any one of those four players in a trade package, the Raptore aren't getting that all-star wing player we're all begging for! Colangelo gambled on O'Neal and his contract, the whole organisation and the fans will have to live with the dividens of that trade until the "big" contracts come off the books.

Back to the article, Hollinger pretty much nailed it, unfortunatly it's far from being pretty in Dino-land.

...the fact that general manager Bryan Colangelo essentially painted himself into a corner.

The way I see it, and it'll be the unpopular opinion, Hell, I'm ashamed to be the one be see it this way but there's no way out. The Raptors can't trade to fill any need they have. You cannot get a border-line all-star winger for Kapono, Graham, Parker or Hump. So we settle for less? I'm not for that, I want to best team possible out there. NEXT... Back-up Point guard, that a more realistic target but where does that leave the team? An above-average Point guard situation, with more holes at the 2 and 3, again where's are we going? So here goes... Beside status-quo, The Toronto Raptor's have three options... I don't like any of them...

#1 Chris Bosh is the only untouchable, if Colangelo can find a deal that may inclued Calderon, Bargnani or O'neal that helps the team, he should do it!!! Basically nuking the teams current core and re-tool.

#2 Tank and sell... by the end of the season our depth chart should ony inclued Bosh, O'Neal, Calderon, the rest 3rd stringers and D-leaguers, in return the Raps get picks, picks and more picks.... Re-tool in the draft.

#3 Retool using Bosh as Bait, combined with the team's own picks, Bosh should give at least give the Raps and few years worth of first rounders and maybe 1 or 2 young players.

There I said it!! Hate me, Flame me, Ban me, Make fun of me... Colangelo has a long year ahead of him and too bad for us, we're in for a rocky New Year. More to come...

Oh and I wish all of you a Happy new Year!

Yes were in for a rocky new year! The only untouchable should be Calderon and Bosh....and you don't trade Bosh if there is even a remote possibility he is staying even down to the deadline next year. Stockpiling picks for the offseason would be a good idea if we could get the likes of a Tyler Smith/ Chase Buddinger/ Sam Young or Terrence Williams type players to plug the various holes we have at the wing positions. Twill and Smith being my favorites to athletic guys that go get the ball. Were missing the athleticism and hustle guys.
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Old 12-31-2008, 11:09 AM   #21
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Default Re: Surprisingly, a John Hollinger article that makes perfect sense.

WTF if everyone here says that we should blow the team up ...... than Bryan Colengelo as to admite that he made the biggest mistake in Drafting Andrea Bargnani and that he also made a big mistake in trading for O'Neil if were even in the talking of blowing up this team ....... PERIOD, there is such thing as RISK and Knowledge and Colengelo seems to have RISK but NO Knowledge because both of his RISK's turned out to be crap shoots ....... I MEAN THIS ONLY IF HE DECIDED TO BLOW THE TEAM UP AS EVERYONE HERE SAYS ...... i still think that a wing player we would solve everything and Colengelo show get us that player with his skills and all that damn money we paid him .....
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Old 12-31-2008, 11:30 AM   #22
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Default Re: Surprisingly, a John Hollinger article that makes perfect sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
I'm starting to lean towards the side that says blow up the team and rebuild... A few more losses and i'll be over the fence.


I can see why you'd say this, I think it myself sometimes. However im going to give it til mid Jan. The schedule allows for more practice time now, really when you think about it, Jay T hasnt been given much of an opportunity to do much in terms of practice.

It has been very disapointing so far, the Raps should blowing out teams under .500 and holding there own against the rest at this stage of the game.

If in the new year this team hasnt changed any, then im all for blowing it up, even if it means trading Bosh.
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Old 12-31-2008, 11:50 AM   #23
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Default Re: Surprisingly, a John Hollinger article that makes perfect sense.

Can anyone paint a realistic scenario in which 'blowing it up' will give us a team that's more likely to challenge for say a Conference title?

I see it something like this. Let's imagine a very rosy scenario for blowing it up. We lose everyone of value except Bosh so that we can build for the future. We then get the first overall pick in 2009 and 2010 and we use them on Blake Griffin (yeah he's a PF just like Bosh but he's by far the number 1 pick on virtually all draft boards) and John Wall and we use the money we've saved to get decent B-list free agents (A-listers aren't coming to a Canadian team in rebuilding mode).

If that happens, Bosh is going. No start-over team I can imagine us building is going to offer a better scenario than playing in New York alongside Lebron James and maybe also Steve Nash under Mike D'Antoni.

Bosh isn't going to wait on some gamble of a rebuilding project. And we are not likely to get a better player, better leader than Bosh for years and years. There isn't anyone we could get in a trade, or in free agency, or in the draft that matches up to Bosh.

We have an all-star PF who will soon be one of the handful of best players in the NBA. We have a PG who will be an all-star, maybe not this year but soon. We have a six-time all-star C who might have years of quality play left (not guaranteed, but nothing's guaranteed). We have, er, other players (one of whom is a recent first overall pick). We have one of the most renowned GMs in the league. That isn't an unsalvageable position. We should not be heading back down to the bottom of the mountain to start climbing all over again. If we do, I doubt we even get this far up.
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Old 12-31-2008, 12:29 PM   #24
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Default Re: Surprisingly, a John Hollinger article that makes perfect sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by keantona
Can anyone paint a realistic scenario in which 'blowing it up' will give us a team that's more likely to challenge for say a Conference title?

I see it something like this. Let's imagine a very rosy scenario for blowing it up. We lose everyone of value except Bosh so that we can build for the future. We then get the first overall pick in 2009 and 2010 and we use them on Blake Griffin (yeah he's a PF just like Bosh but he's by far the number 1 pick on virtually all draft boards) and John Wall and we use the money we've saved to get decent B-list free agents (A-listers aren't coming to a Canadian team in rebuilding mode).

If that happens, Bosh is going. No start-over team I can imagine us building is going to offer a better scenario than playing in New York alongside Lebron James and maybe also Steve Nash under Mike D'Antoni.

Bosh isn't going to wait on some gamble of a rebuilding project. And we are not likely to get a better player, better leader than Bosh for years and years. There isn't anyone we could get in a trade, or in free agency, or in the draft that matches up to Bosh.

We have an all-star PF who will soon be one of the handful of best players in the NBA. We have a PG who will be an all-star, maybe not this year but soon. We have a six-time all-star C who might have years of quality play left (not guaranteed, but nothing's guaranteed). We have, er, other players (one of whom is a recent first overall pick). We have one of the most renowned GMs in the league. That isn't an unsalvageable position. We should not be heading back down to the bottom of the mountain to start climbing all over again. If we do, I doubt we even get this far up.

Even though you make some great points (that I agree with). All those great things haven't added up to anything except a couple of first round exits in hindsight and it's getting worse. IMO if we hit 10+ games under .500 this season is going to be over and it's time retool through the draft to fix the wings.

too JRCP3 you can't really say that JO failed...he gets injured a bit we all knew it was going to be a slight problem. He has been putting up better numbers on the team than any other player (other than Bosh) he's been the most consistent. The odd one out in this situation is any wing Will Solomon and Bargs. You have to come up with some conceivable trade to get a starter and then you can always go trolling in the d league to find a backup big like Courtney Sims who's been playing out of his mind so far. Even Voskhul of his limited minutes to me has shown much more of what we want than Bargs is doing. At least he takes up space plays decent positional defence and hustles/stays in the paint.

I also hear as of this morning in an article that they're working on a deal to be completed in the new Year how far or when we'll see. No names have been given.

Last edited by bonez26 : 12-31-2008 at 03:42 PM.
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Old 12-31-2008, 12:31 PM   #25
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Default Re: Surprisingly, a John Hollinger article that makes perfect sense.

If we blow up the team like everyone here says ......

Bosh leaves in 2010 GUARANTEED

Bargnani will become the Face of the Raptors

Colangelo officially becomes a joke because everything he had done up to this point was a complete WASTE!

Risk on drafting Bargnani = WASTE
Risk on trading for O'Neil = WASTE
Risk on contract for Jose = WASTE

This is all IF they decide to blow up the team .......
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Old 12-31-2008, 01:11 PM   #26
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Default Re: Surprisingly, a John Hollinger article that makes perfect sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrcp3
If we blow up the team like everyone here says ......

Bosh leaves in 2010 GUARANTEED

Bargnani will become the Face of the Raptors

Colangelo officially becomes a joke because everything he had done up to this point was a complete WASTE!

Risk on drafting Bargnani = WASTE
Risk on trading for O'Neil = WASTE
Risk on contract for Jose = WASTE

This is all IF they decide to blow up the team .......


What people are missing is that most of this stuff will happen regardless if we 'blow it up' or not. This team is being blown up in the sense that it's not going to work and result in ANYTHING significant. So you either blow it up painfully and suffer (like the Blue Jays - massive payroll, crap team, no chance of winning) or you actively choose to blow it up and get quality assets for your players.

And blow it up does not mean get rid of our roster outside of Jose, JO and Bosh. Nobody wants the rest of our trash! You can't blow it up and move trash for quality assets. Blowing it up means Bosh is gone now, hopefully along with some terrible contract like Kapono.
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Old 12-31-2008, 01:14 PM   #27
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Default Re: Surprisingly, a John Hollinger article that makes perfect sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketWs

#2 Tank and sell... by the end of the season our depth chart should ony inclued Bosh, O'Neal, Calderon, the rest 3rd stringers and D-leaguers, in return the Raps get picks, picks and more picks.... Re-tool in the draft.


I agree with most of what you wrote, but this is just in a fantasy land. What team would give us anything of value for the rest of our roster outside these 3 players...and really one 2 b/c nobody would want JO.


There is nothing worse then being what the Pau Gasol Memphis Grizzlies were. Good enough to make the playoffs and be one and done, or just miss and get a crap lottery pick. Either suck hard and get high picks or be good enough to at least be a title pretender (like the Suns and Mavs have been) or have youth and be heading in the right direction (Atlanta, Portland etc.)

Last edited by RapsFan : 12-31-2008 at 01:20 PM.
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Old 12-31-2008, 02:35 PM   #28
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Default Re: Surprisingly, a John Hollinger article that makes perfect sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bonez26
Even though you make soem great points (that I agree with). All those great things haven't added up to anything except a couple of first round exits in hindsight and it's getting worse. IMO if we hit 10+ games under .500 this season is going to be over and it's time retool through the draft to fix the wings.

too JRCP3 you can't really say that JO failed...he gets injured a bit we all knew it was going to be a slight problem. He has been putting up better numbers on the team than any other player (other than Bosh) he's been the most consistent. The odd one out in this situation is any wing Will Solomon and Bargs. You have to come up with some conceivable trade to get a starter and then you can always go trolling in the d league to find a backup big like Courtney Sims who's been playing out of his mind so far. Even Voskhul of rhis limited minutes to me has shown much more of what we want than Bargs is boing. At least he takes up space plays decent positional defence and hustles/stys in the paint.

I also hear as of this morning in an article that they're working on a deal to be completed in the new Year how far or when we'll see. No names have been given.
I totally agree with this. There's only so long you can wait, and once we reach a certain point, maybe 10-11 games under .500, that's pretty much a wrap. That means that either we're not going to the playoffs or else we're headed to a hard fought 7th or 8th place finish and first round sweep.

If BC isn't going to make any significant moves (namely, trading Bargs) then all we have left is to trade away that garbage we have for cap space and draft picks so that we actually have a legitimate team down the line.
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Old 12-31-2008, 03:06 PM   #29
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Default Re: Surprisingly, a John Hollinger article that makes perfect sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
I totally agree with this. There's only so long you can wait, and once we reach a certain point, maybe 10-11 games under .500, that's pretty much a wrap. That means that either we're not going to the playoffs or else we're headed to a hard fought 7th or 8th place finish and first round sweep.

If BC isn't going to make any significant moves (namely, trading Bargs) then all we have left is to trade away that garbage we have for cap space and draft picks so that we actually have a legitimate team down the line.



Down the line as in ..... next year ? or in 2010 when bosh is gone .......
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Old 12-31-2008, 03:25 PM   #30
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Default Re: Surprisingly, a John Hollinger article that makes perfect sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrcp3
[/b]

Down the line as in ..... next year ? or in 2010 when bosh is gone .......
Bosh has experienced the playoffs twice now, so it's not like we're at the point where just barely getting in is gonna make him happy. He would still be frustrated if we get there as a low seed and get taken out with ease in the first round, so there's only so much we can do. The decision is up to him.
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