Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > NBA Team Forums > Toronto Raptors Forum

Toronto Raptors Forum Toronto Raptors message board - Toronto Raptors forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-02-2009, 03:01 PM   #31
bokes15
Playoffs!
 
bokes15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York City
Posts: 9,290
Default Re: Bragnani Situation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by b4ball
I agree with you Q. I have always liked Humphries. Energy guy that defends, get's rebounds, plays with aggression that nobody other then JO does and he will drive to the basket. At $3 mil per year he's a trading option.

But, trading away Bargnani and having JO mis games the way he does, are you comfortable with Hump and Voskul and just an average wing, which is all Bargnani would bring with Parker, Moon or Kapono as the playmate?
We already have average wings in Parker, Moon, Kapono. We'd be trading to get an above average wing. And if we had that playmaker, scoring wing we wouldn't need any more offensive firepower as we already have JO, Bosh, Calderon, *scoring wing*, Parker/Kapono/Moon (whichever one we keep). And all we need is a decent backup center who can block shots and rebound. Maybe inquire about Sean Williams, or find a D-League guy, whatever the case, there's options for that.
bokes15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2009, 03:10 PM   #32
bokes15
Playoffs!
 
bokes15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York City
Posts: 9,290
Default Re: Bragnani Situation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaininThrees

Seriously guys... hasn't this been covered enough?

Yes, Bargnani has been brutal in TO thus far. No, there weren't any sure-fire #1s in that draft.

In hindsight, did Toronto pick the wrong guy? Probably? Should we move on?

YES.
It's a basketball forum. If we were winning, THEN we would move on. If we're losing, we're gonna talk about what we think should be done to right the ship. Live with it.
bokes15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2009, 03:38 PM   #33
b4ball
Local High School Star
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,146
Default Re: Bragnani Situation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
We already have average wings in Parker, Moon, Kapono. We'd be trading to get an above average wing. And if we had that playmaker, scoring wing we wouldn't need any more offensive firepower as we already have JO, Bosh, Calderon, *scoring wing*, Parker/Kapono/Moon (whichever one we keep). And all we need is a decent backup center who can block shots and rebound. Maybe inquire about Sean Williams, or find a D-League guy, whatever the case, there's options for that.

Boky, if Moon, Parker or Kapono were average players, with Bosh, JO and Calderon we would be legit 4 - 5 in division right now. Reality is, none of those guys are average players.

To get that above average wing our biggest trading asset is Bargnani. Will Bargnani bring us that above average wing? And if he does at what expense. As mentioned before, after Bosh, if JO is injured we have Humpries and Voskuhl as bigs. Even finding a D league guys as your sugesting do you think we are a better team?

I don't think so.

That wing would have to be a top flight one before we see dividents that would make it worth it. Because getting us to 6 - 8 seed still sees us bounced out of the playoffs in the first round.
b4ball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2009, 04:03 PM   #34
bokes15
Playoffs!
 
bokes15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York City
Posts: 9,290
Default Re: Bragnani Situation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by b4ball
Boky, if Moon, Parker or Kapono were average players, with Bosh, JO and Calderon we would be legit 4 - 5 in division right now. Reality is, none of those guys are average players.

To get that above average wing our biggest trading asset is Bargnani. Will Bargnani bring us that above average wing? And if he does at what expense. As mentioned before, after Bosh, if JO is injured we have Humpries and Voskuhl as bigs. Even finding a D league guys as your sugesting do you think we are a better team?

I don't think so.

That wing would have to be a top flight one before we see dividents that would make it worth it. Because getting us to 6 - 8 seed still sees us bounced out of the playoffs in the first round.
No, there aren't any teams with average wings that are in the top 5 in their conference. Name me one team in the top 5 of either conference that has average guards/wings.

edit: nvm i'll answer that for you.
1. Boston - Ray Allen, Paul Pierce
2. Cleveland - Lebron James
3. Orlando - Rashard Lewis, Hedo Turkoglu
4. Atlanta -Joe Johnson, Josh Smith
5. Detroit - Allen Iverson, Rip Hamilton

West
1. LA - Kobe Bryant
2. New Orleans - Chris Paul (i suppose the rest are debatable)
3. San Antonio - Manu Ginobli, Tony Parker
4. Denver - Melo, Billups, JR Smith
5. Houston - T-mac, Ron Artest

All of these teams have at least one All-star or at least borderline all-star wing and are definitely not considered average.

Last edited by bokes15 : 01-02-2009 at 04:09 PM.
bokes15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2009, 04:50 PM   #35
b4ball
Local High School Star
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,146
Default Re: Bragnani Situation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
No, there aren't any teams with average wings that are in the top 5 in their conference. Name me one team in the top 5 of either conference that has average guards/wings.

edit: nvm i'll answer that for you.
1. Boston - Ray Allen, Paul Pierce
2. Cleveland - Lebron James
3. Orlando - Rashard Lewis, Hedo Turkoglu
4. Atlanta -Joe Johnson, Josh Smith
5. Detroit - Allen Iverson, Rip Hamilton

West
1. LA - Kobe Bryant
2. New Orleans - Chris Paul (i suppose the rest are debatable)
3. San Antonio - Manu Ginobli, Tony Parker
4. Denver - Melo, Billups, JR Smith
5. Houston - T-mac, Ron Artest

All of these teams have at least one All-star or at least borderline all-star wing and are definitely not considered average.

Very nice of you to do some homework to answer your own question!!

Boky, I challenged your premise that the Raptor wings were average players in this league. I also asked you to consider the ramifications of trading Bargnani for an average wing, because we won't get a top flight wing for him. Then without Bargnani we have only Humprhies and Voskuhl to relive JO when he's injured, which happens a lot.

Again, we have a weak back court after Calderon, we no wings to speak of, and when JO is injured we have, without Bargnani just Bosh, Humpries and Voskuhl.

Trading away Bargnani for a mediocre wing makes no sense. We still don't get anywhere this year.

So nice work looking up other teams line ups, but it was all for not because I could have done that myself.
b4ball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2009, 05:01 PM   #36
bokes15
Playoffs!
 
bokes15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York City
Posts: 9,290
Default Re: Bragnani Situation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by b4ball
Very nice of you to do some homework to answer your own question!!

Boky, I challenged your premise that the Raptor wings were average players in this league. I also asked you to consider the ramifications of trading Bargnani for an average wing, because we won't get a top flight wing for him. Then without Bargnani we have only Humprhies and Voskuhl to relive JO when he's injured, which happens a lot.

Again, we have a weak back court after Calderon, we no wings to speak of, and when JO is injured we have, without Bargnani just Bosh, Humpries and Voskuhl.

Trading away Bargnani for a mediocre wing makes no sense. We still don't get anywhere this year.

So nice work looking up other teams line ups, but it was all for not because I could have done that myself.

Actually, it dispelled the notion that we would be a top 4-5 team with so-called "average" wings because each of the top 4-5 teams in each conference have above average wings.

We don't (or at least I don't) want to trade Bargnani for some mediocre wing player, and I don't believe that anyone else who is calling for him to be traded does either.
bokes15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2009, 05:29 PM   #37
b4ball
Local High School Star
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,146
Default Re: Bragnani Situation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
Actually, it dispelled the notion that we would be a top 4-5 team with so-called "average" wings because each of the top 4-5 teams in each conference have above average wings.

We don't (or at least I don't) want to trade Bargnani for some mediocre wing player, and I don't believe that anyone else who is calling for him to be traded does either.

I disagree. Say if we had Wallace as a three, (and he's average or just above in my opinion) without having to trade away anybody we would be in that 4 - 6 range. Even without any real back court help, even with JO playing just 65 games.

The fact that we only have Bargnani that might bring something, and not that much right now, is what puts this team in such a precarious situation.
b4ball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2009, 05:31 PM   #38
rosonviyavong
Raps, Jazz, and UCONN
 
rosonviyavong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,500
Default Re: Bragnani Situation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
Bargnani is not a C he's a PF despite being 7ft, kind of like a far less talented version of Drk. We definitely could've had Aldridge. We worked him out and he was given first pick consideration, but the problem is, BC was sold on picking Bargnani from day 1, despite talks of "keeping his options open"

yeah really dissapointing ..BUT I THINK ROB BABCOCKK WOULDA PICKED ALDRIDGE ..haha jokes probably woulda gone with kosta koufus first pick
rosonviyavong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2009, 07:05 PM   #39
bokes15
Playoffs!
 
bokes15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York City
Posts: 9,290
Default Re: Bragnani Situation...

As much as people hated on Glen Grunwald, he was a genius when it came to drafting.. and made some good solid trades for us as well.. IMO, he was unjustly blamed for the team not winning when VC started to go down with ever injury imaginable.

Some of Grunwalds best moves:
February 18 1998
Traded guard Kenny Anderson, forward Popeye Jones and center Zan Tabak to the Boston Celtics for guards Chauncey Billups and Dee Brown and forwards John Thomas and Roy Rogers.

June 9 1998
Traded forward Roy Rogers and two 1998 first-round draft picks to the Houston Rockets for forward-center Kevin Willis.

June 25 1998
Traded forward-center Marcus Camby
to the New York Knicks for forward Charles Oakley, center Sean Marks, a second-round pick in the 1998 draft and cash.

Draft 1998
Selected forward Antawn Jamison (4th overall pick) and forward Tyson Wheeler (47th overall pick).
Traded the draft rights to forward Antawn Jamison to the Golden State Warriors for the draft rights to guard Vince Carter and cash.

August 5 1999
Signed free agent guard-forward Dell Curry, who had been with the Milwaukee Bucks, to a three-year contract.
August 1 1999
Traded the draft rights forward Jonathan Bender to the Indiana Pacers for forward Antonio Davis.

Draft 2000
Selected guard Morris Peterson (21st overall pick)

August 11 2000
Signed guard Mark Jackson, who had been with the Indiana Pacers, to a four-year contract.

That's just a few. Love him or hate him this guy knew how to get things done.

Last edited by bokes15 : 01-02-2009 at 07:07 PM.
bokes15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2009, 09:53 PM   #40
b4ball
Local High School Star
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,146
Default Re: Bragnani Situation...

I can't help but think of what else BC could have done with TJ, after watching tonights game. I know T-Mac mailed it in tonight, and the Rockets as a whole looked terrible, but Bargnani's defense was very good tonight against Yao. Yes he had some good hard fouls from Voskuhl to help slow Yao down, but Bargnani played well on both sides of the floor.

If Bargnani had a steady roll, and we traded TJ and others (Nesterovic?) for a two and three where would we be?

I like Bargnani, I think it would be a mistake to trade him. Another summer at a big man camp to continue to work on his post up game and he could be a very effective big man.

Sign me up as keep Bargnani proponent.
b4ball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2009, 10:00 PM   #41
Qwyjibo
Yankee.Hotel.Foxtrot
 
Qwyjibo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 12,067
Default Re: Bragnani Situation...



Just like I said earlier in the thread:

Quote:
It happens. Since these guys were all 1st picks, you want to so bad look at the few good games rather than all the bad ones but in the end, the long-term results win out.

I'm glad he's playing well but other than hitting his open shots for 2 games in a row. What has been different from the rest of the season? How many players have been so bad for 2+ seasons and turned out to be even solid starters in this league? I'm a fan and hopes he does well and magically turns into the C that the Raptors need but then common sense and years of historical comparisons send me back to reality. I'll stick to the odds which say Bargnani will never be an impact player in the NBA.

The Raptors will never be a great team with Bosh/Bargnani at PF/C.
Qwyjibo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2009, 10:50 PM   #42
J000
ISH #1 AFGHAN
 
J000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Punani 69 Way
Posts: 719
Default Re: Bragnani Situation...

There are many questions to be asked..

"Why did we draft Barganani?"
"Why didn't we draft Iguodala?"
"Why didn't we draft Danny Granger?"

etc.

No matter how much you whine it's not coming, you can't return the past, just get over it and hopefully we get a nice trade value for Bargnani. Trade value is expanding btw
J000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2009, 02:52 AM   #43
TMAC-RAPTORS
Sharpshooter
 
TMAC-RAPTORS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,555
Default Re: Bragnani Situation...

Another game like this or two and we will have ourselves our slashing-defense wing player we been all crying about.
TMAC-RAPTORS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2009, 03:01 AM   #44
bokes15
Playoffs!
 
bokes15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York City
Posts: 9,290
Default Re: Bragnani Situation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMAC-RAPTORS
Another game like this or two and we will have ourselves our slashing-defense wing player we been all crying about.
I'm telling you guys, despite slumps and stretches of bad play, GM's around the league still believe in his long term potential, so the time to trade him would be now... I just hope he materializes into this wonderful player (who can play full time C) that some of you posters + BC envision, because if not we're gonna be kicking ourselves for holding on to him.
bokes15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2009, 01:13 PM   #45
bonez26
Local High School Star
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,189
Default Re: Bragnani Situation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
I'm telling you guys, despite slumps and stretches of bad play, GM's around the league still believe in his long term potential, so the time to trade him would be now... I just hope he materializes into this wonderful player (who can play full time C) that some of you posters + BC envision, because if not we're gonna be kicking ourselves for holding on to him.


Yep you have to trade potential right now for production...because we have no players except Bosh and JO that give us consistent numbers every night. You need that third guy to help them out and give them easier baskets cutting and dishing.
bonez26 is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:35 AM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site













Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy