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Old 01-03-2009, 10:37 PM   #1
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Default Rapsfan, I was wrong...

Back in the summer time when we were discussing the Raptors prior to when the season started, I said that the exact same Raptors team minus Chris Bosh and add Dwayne Wade would not be better... and was I ever wrong. I've been watching a lot of Heat games this season and I just finished watching Heat vs. Nets where Dwayne Wade just took over the game down the stretch. Offensively, defensively, rebounding, shot blocking, assists, everything you name it, he did it.

No disrespect to Bosh but you can't have your PF be the guy who'strying to create for you down the stretch. D.W. was playing badly all game, and then with 2 minutes left in the 4th he just took the ball in his hands, did some crossovers, split the D, and took it to the basket time and time again. It's very true that you need that guard play for late game situations, as there's very few forwards and centers in this league that can be constantly depended on to be a playmaker down the stretch.
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Old 01-04-2009, 01:34 AM   #2
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Default Re: Rapsfan, I was wrong...

Guards can create plays more easily than say a PF. How many PF's have we seen in NBA history that have been dominating and just flat out took over games? PF's not C's. C's are different than PF's.
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Old 01-04-2009, 02:31 AM   #3
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Default Re: Rapsfan, I was wrong...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bada bing
Guards can create plays more easily than say a PF. How many PF's have we seen in NBA history that have been dominating and just flat out took over games? PF's not C's. C's are different than PF's.
Even a C needs a guard who can create. Could you imagine if Shaq didn't have Kobe or Wade to draw the defense and then lob it to him at crucial moments? It's all the same to me. I've realized that it's pretty much a guards league. Yeah you need your big man of course but a guard who can create his own shot is pretty much a minimum requirement to be an upper eschalan team.
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Old 01-04-2009, 02:50 AM   #4
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Default Re: Rapsfan, I was wrong...

Ah mem.

That’s exactly what I have said many times. Exactly why I said Bosh could be on the trading block, for a true 2 or 3.

PF are not the game changers in this game any more. It's two’s and three's. I don't dislike Bosh or his game, but if we could move him for Joe Johnson and Al Horford I would do it in a second.

Name your favorite players within the parameters of two and or three's that becomes available if Bosh is the player going the other way and for the most part we win.

Despite some of the retorts you might hear because I am the one saying it, 2 & 3's dominate today's game. Yes Bosh dominates his position, and I believe he does, in the entire league outside of Duncan, even over Garnett if all things were equal. But that position is not the dominate one the way the game is officiated today.

As great as Bosh is I could easily live with Bargnani as a centre and Horford as a power forward with Joe Johnson as the two and Calderon at the point. And, all of a sudden the bench is stronger with Kapono, Parker, Graham, Humphries, Vosckuhl, Soloman and Uckic. And we still have JO's contract to play with. Trade or salary dump in 2010.

I don't want to sit here and pretend that I know better. So I would like some input from those who I respect. Q, what do you think of of this? Also, Chamberlain & Funk (because they are mods) and every other raps fan. And I welcome the Bargnani dissenters, namely Boky and Selkman.

Last edited by b4ball : 01-04-2009 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 01-04-2009, 03:00 AM   #5
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Default Re: Rapsfan, I was wrong...

I made the thread, so i'm gonna respond in it, if you don't like it, you can create your own or just ignore this post...

My thoughts on what you said: I agree to an extent but it would take more than Joe Johnson and Al Horford for me to give up Chris Bosh. He is a top 3 player in his position, probably alonside with TD and KG as you said... And the guard has to be something pretty special. To me, the guard/wing has to be in the same sentence as a Lebron James, D-Wade, Kobe, Chris Paul in order to compensate for just having a solid but not All-star/superstar calibur big such as Al Horford. It'd take more than JJ to make me pull the trigger on such a deal.
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Old 01-04-2009, 03:01 AM   #6
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Default Re: Rapsfan, I was wrong...

And just for the record:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwyjibo


Just like I said earlier in the thread:



I'm glad he's playing well but other than hitting his open shots for 2 games in a row. What has been different from the rest of the season? How many players have been so bad for 2+ seasons and turned out to be even solid starters in this league? I'm a fan and hopes he does well and magically turns into the C that the Raptors need but then common sense and years of historical comparisons send me back to reality. I'll stick to the odds which say Bargnani will never be an impact player in the NBA.

The Raptors will never be a great team with Bosh/Bargnani at PF/C.
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Old 01-04-2009, 03:32 AM   #7
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Default Re: Rapsfan, I was wrong...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
And just for the record:


Boky, please let Q speak for himself. You just pasted a threat that said Bosh / Bargnani will never be a great team. What I suggested was something other then that.

Also, if your waiting for Wade, Lebron, Kobe or Paul, we will never get that kind of trade. I already said Bosh was second as far as I'm concerned as a power forward in the entire league. But you can't take a position that is not as much of a game changer and trade it for one that is, and get equal value.
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Old 01-04-2009, 03:45 AM   #8
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Default Re: Rapsfan, I was wrong...

Quote:
Originally Posted by b4ball
Boky, please let Q speak for himself. You just pasted a threat that said Bosh / Bargnani will never be a great team. What I suggested was something other then that.

Also, if your waiting for Wade, Lebron, Kobe or Paul, we will never get that kind of trade. I already said Bosh was second as far as I'm concerned as a power forward in the entire league. But you can't take a position that is not as much of a game changer and trade it for one that is, and get equal value.
I'm not speaking for Q. I'm merely pointing out that Q said the same thing that I said earlier in that thread, I just happened to be the person you attacked for whatever reason.

And I didn't say we're gonna get Wade, Lebron, Kobe, or Paul... This thread was about a hypothetical/non-realistic conversation I was having with Rapsfan in probably August or July. I personally wouldn't trade Bosh unless I was getting back something of equal value.. and to me JJ + Horford does not = Bosh.

Edit: ok, I just re-read that and I still don't agree. JJ is a very good player, but he's at best a borderline all-star IMO. Which, even when combined with Horford is not good enough to justify trading away our borderline superstar. But I do also want to hear other opinions.

Last edited by bokes15 : 01-04-2009 at 03:51 AM.
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Old 01-04-2009, 08:14 AM   #9
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Default Re: Rapsfan, I was wrong...

I have just always viewed the NBA as a guard's league, an ISO league. Wings dominate the scoring charts. I think many people assume or think it's about the bigs, and that isn't the case. You need quality bigs, but you need great 'guard play' to win. The raps this year have shown that having an elite big, and even a quality PG is nothing without the ability to create.

As for the JJ/Horford for Bosh, I too would accept that in a second. I think JJ isn't just a borderline all star...he's a lock and I have read numerous national articles talking about how he's the most underrated SUPERstar in the game. I also don't think Atlanta would ever do that.

The NBA is weird...you can win games with VC and Devin as your backcourt and Yi as your starting PF, but you can't win with Chris Bosh as your PF and Jose/Parker as your backcourt.
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Old 01-04-2009, 01:23 PM   #10
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Default Re: Rapsfan, I was wrong...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
Edit: ok, I just re-read that and I still don't agree. JJ is a very good player, but he's at best a borderline all-star IMO. Which, even when combined with Horford is not good enough to justify trading away our borderline superstar. But I do also want to hear other opinions.

Bokes, you're overrating Bosh. A lot. Pains me to say it but it's just the truth. I like him too, but in now way should he be as untouchable as you'd clearly like him to be.

Let me prefix this by saying I'm admittedly a Joe Johnson fanboy. But in what universe could you realistically turn down a 23/6/5 guy with excellent size who could easily play 3 different positions for the Raptors, along with an automatic 10 and 10 big with plenty of upside in Horford?
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Old 01-04-2009, 02:47 PM   #11
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Default Re: Rapsfan, I was wrong...

Quote:
Originally Posted by new noise
Bokes, you're overrating Bosh. A lot. Pains me to say it but it's just the truth. I like him too, but in now way should he be as untouchable as you'd clearly like him to be.

Let me prefix this by saying I'm admittedly a Joe Johnson fanboy. But in what universe could you realistically turn down a 23/6/5 guy with excellent size who could easily play 3 different positions for the Raptors, along with an automatic 10 and 10 big with plenty of upside in Horford?

I agree. You gain so much in the backcourt, compared to the drop off from Bosh to Horford especially since defense and rebounding are a part of the game along with offense. Horford won't touch Bosh offensively, but he's probably already a better defender and just as a good rebounder. He's also tougher.
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Old 01-04-2009, 03:51 PM   #12
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Default Re: Rapsfan, I was wrong...

Bosh for JJ and Horford? Yea I'd probably do it. Atlanta doesn't though.

A trade like this balances the Raptors roster out with Bargnani moving to PF and Horford being a solid young option at C. This completely throws the Hawks lineup out of whack with a gaping hole at SG and two PFs (Bosh and Smith) both starting somehow. Another problem is the Raptors will have to give JJ a max contract in 2010 to keep him. It would be a Rashard Lewis type deal no? So you better hope Horford and Bargnani can improve because you will have absolutely zero roster cap flexibility once you re-sign JJ to the max, Horford to likely near the max and Bargnani to whatever (minimum $8.5 million per year) while still keeping Calderon. It's a good deal for the Raptors but far from a gimme move.

I don't think the Raptors will be getting any offers this good for Bosh though. He is the one sure thing on the Raptors. Well Calderon too but he is nowhere near the impact player of a Bosh. You keep Bosh and build around him and just DO IT RIGHT this time.
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Old 01-04-2009, 03:57 PM   #13
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Default Re: Rapsfan, I was wrong...

And in the 2010-2011 season, JJ will be turning 30... It would pretty much be sacrificing our future (24 year old Bosh) for a player that will improve our team marginally.

I believe that our team could improve because of roles being more well defined + having a guard who could create for themself, but I do not believe that the team with JJ and Horford and minus Bosh would be a legit title contender. Probably a 2nd round at best, and then we'd have to be paying JJ superstar money while he declines.
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Old 01-04-2009, 04:11 PM   #14
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Default Re: Rapsfan, I was wrong...

I'm certainly not jumping to trade Bosh. He's an excellent player and getting better. If he can up his rebounding by 2 or 3 a game in the next couple years, he'll be every bit as good as Kevin Garnett in his prime. That's saying a lot.

It's all just talk anyway, because he really is as close to untouchable as your LeBrons, Wades, your Carmelos. But if you get something as good as Johnson/Horford for him, I have to think it'd be way too tempting not to pull the trigger.
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Old 01-04-2009, 04:18 PM   #15
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Default Re: Rapsfan, I was wrong...

I can understand the point that you guys are making, but all i'm saying is that my thought is... the only thing that would make me want to pull the trigger on Bosh would be if in exchange we got a player (or players) that made us instant championship contenders. Otherwise, 2-3 years from now we'd look bad if they only took us to the second round and then both 29-30 year old JJ and prime Horford were demanding huge salaries while our potential superstar is somewhere else challenging for a ring.
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