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Old 01-06-2009, 11:17 AM   #31
Qwyjibo
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Default Re: Bargnani not on block!

Top free agents SG/SF this upcoming off-season:

Shawn Marion
- Will be even more useless in the Raptors slow-down halfcourt game then he already is in Miami. On the decline and will demand too much money.

Lamar Odom
- Decent option since he can rebound and is an alright playmaker. Depends on how much money he demands.

Ron Artest
- Ugh, so overrated but I guess people like him.

Hedo Turkoglu
- Stick him in at SF and the Raptors have the softest starting frontcourt in the league. Wouldn't be surprised if Colangelo targets him. This is the same GM who thought Kapono, Bosh, Bargnani would work.

Ben Gordon
- Worst defensive backcourt in the league. Not much of a playmaker either.

Then you have good role-players like Trevor Ariza, Matt Barnes and others.
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Old 01-06-2009, 11:20 AM   #32
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Default Re: Bargnani not on block!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
http://dinonationblog.wordpress.com/...-the-airwaves/




JO was not just brought in for cap relief. BC fully expected this team to be a top contender in the EC, there's no doubt about that if you listened to him talk all summer.

And if you listened to him talk all summer and EVERYTHING HE SAID he also mentioned that on expiry of O'Neal's contract it opens up a huge amount of cap space in 2010. Funny how you try to use his quotes to support this particularly argument here but in an earlier comment referring to the radio interview yesterday you state 'I just finished listening, and none of that really told me that Bargs is not on the block.' even though he specifically stated Bargnani is not on the block.

Yes, Colangelo stated their goal was top 4 and could get top 2. If they make the 2nd round then they are top 4 in the eastern conference and could be considered contenders in the east. And nowhere did I state he was just brought in for just cap relief. I stated several reasons he was brought including to help get to the 2nd round. Maybe you mixed it up when I stated he was not brought in to win an NBA title which by the way I don't think Colangelo ever stated that.
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Old 01-06-2009, 11:41 AM   #33
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Default Re: Bargnani not on block!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwyjibo
Colangelo traded 3 of his best assets to get JO. Ford, Rasho's expiring deal and the 1st rounder. That to me signifies "win now".

What is your definition of 'win now'? Win now could mean make it past the first round and win more games than last season which I don't think was a stretch to think when the deal went through.

I am certain 'win now' does not mean winning the conference and certainly not the NBA title. I don't think Colangelo honestly believed they could win the eastern conference.

'Win now' is also to help encourage Bosh to re-sign.

And as I stated earlier one of the reasons he did the deal was to open up huge cap space for 2010. Colangelo stated from the beginning that the process was not a 2 or 3 year thing but more like 5 years and beyond.

Colangelo mentioned they were a couple of pieces away from being in the upper echeon. One piece was getting tougher, interior defense and rebounding and the other improving the wing position but that for now the wing position would have to improve internally with what they had. Be honest. How many people thought the wing position would be this bad? I think in general people believed more production and better play would come from Kapano and Moon and the other wing players. He said with the cap space or there lack of, it is difficult to address both issues at once. Plus who knows what deals were 'actually' out there and not 'rumoured' deals. Most probably would have left him with little cap space for 2010.

Last edited by huppcap : 01-06-2009 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 01-06-2009, 11:54 AM   #34
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Default Re: Bargnani not on block!

I don't even understand this infatuation with the 2010 cap space. The Raptors will have money to re-sign Bosh no matter what. This isn't in question. The Raptors can offer him more money than any other team and Bosh will likely take it. Does anyone actually believe the Raptors have a chance at signing another impact player though? Maybe if they offer Joe Johnson a Rashard Lewis type contract then yea but that would be a huge mistake.

To me it seems like Colangelo has no clue what kind of team he wants to put together. He comes into Toronto thinking that the NBA is changing away from the traditional big man and drafts Bargnani to be the C. He was wrong. He realized this and got that tough interior D big man in O'Neal but now he doesn't want that anymore. Part of the reason Mitchell was canned was to run more and get easier points on the break but then why has he created a slow down half-court team by choosing to keep Calderon and trading for O'Neal? It's like there is no plan other than "hope Bosh re-signs and hope Bargnani does something and go from there". That's not much to build on for a future title contender.
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Old 01-06-2009, 12:05 PM   #35
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Default Re: Bargnani not on block!

If JO doesnt stay healthy, then we need Bargs big time. Just thought id throw that out there.
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Old 01-06-2009, 12:27 PM   #36
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Default Re: Bargnani not on block!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwyjibo
To me it seems like Colangelo has no clue what kind of team he wants to put together. He comes into Toronto thinking that the NBA is changing away from the traditional big man and drafts Bargnani to be the C. He was wrong. He realized this and got that tough interior D big man in O'Neal but now he doesn't want that anymore. Part of the reason Mitchell was canned was to run more and get easier points on the break but then why has he created a slow down half-court team by choosing to keep Calderon and trading for O'Neal? It's like there is no plan other than "hope Bosh re-signs and hope Bargnani does something and go from there". That's not much to build on for a future title contender.

*Sigh* So true...team is pretty much a mess at the moment. And all we have to look forward to in the off-season is minor depth changes and a new coach. Unless of course we keep playing like we have the last month or so and have a nice young bluechipper fall to us in the draft.
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Old 01-06-2009, 12:56 PM   #37
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Default Re: Bargnani not on block!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwyjibo
I don't even understand this infatuation with the 2010 cap space. The Raptors will have money to re-sign Bosh no matter what. This isn't in question. The Raptors can offer him more money than any other team and Bosh will likely take it. Does anyone actually believe the Raptors have a chance at signing another impact player though? Maybe if they offer Joe Johnson a Rashard Lewis type contract then yea but that would be a huge mistake.

To me it seems like Colangelo has no clue what kind of team he wants to put together. He comes into Toronto thinking that the NBA is changing away from the traditional big man and drafts Bargnani to be the C. He was wrong. He realized this and got that tough interior D big man in O'Neal but now he doesn't want that anymore. Part of the reason Mitchell was canned was to run more and get easier points on the break but then why has he created a slow down half-court team by choosing to keep Calderon and trading for O'Neal? It's like there is no plan other than "hope Bosh re-signs and hope Bargnani does something and go from there". That's not much to build on for a future title contender.

Because you don't know what Colangelo is doing, or don't want to know because it doesn't fit your thought process means he's stupid, and you know better!!

Come on, don't throw away your credibility with your hatred of Bargnani and Colangelo.

Cap space in any year is a good thing, and it has nothing to do with their ability to pay Bosh, and you know that. JO's contract has value, more then Bargnani's, and Bargnani has lot more upside then JO. It's not that hard to see or understand. The direction change you keep refering to is the one you would like to see, namely getting Bargnani out of Toronto, and until you see that, any direction Colangelo goes in should be questioned and ridiculed by you.

The issues the Raptors have can be corrected, we have tradeable assets other then the ones you see. Have a little faith, be a little more objective and appreciate the small steps currently being made.

If your looking to coment, I would like to see some appreciation shown to Triano. The Raptors have made some significant improvements, that would be something worth comenting on.
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Old 01-06-2009, 01:25 PM   #38
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Default Re: Bargnani not on block!

I don't hate Bargnani. I just don't think a team can be successful with him and Bosh at PF and C. Clearly that's just my opinion on how a team should be built but looking over the last several years, when have any of the top teams been so weak on the board and interior D like the Raptors would be with Bosh and Bargnani? And since I don't think Bargnani will ever come close to the player that Bosh is, that's why I've been pushing to deal him.

It's true I don't know what Colangelo is doing but can anyone at least pick out a direction he is going for with this team? So far the only constants have been Bosh, Parker and Bargnani. And we all know Parker is gone after this season. The Raptors went from a running team with Ford/Bargnani to a slower team with Ford/Rasho then back to a faster offense team with Ford/Kapono/Bargnani which quickly failed so they went back to Rasho and Moon. Then the JO trade firmly turned the Raptors into a slow down half-court team with him and Calderon. Now with Mitchell gone everyone is pushing for more running in the offense which won't happen with Calderon in there and it looks like Bargnani is once again set as the C of the future here. I see constant flip-flopping which means Colangelo is making mistakes and trying to fix them. It would be nice if he wasn't making these mistakes in the first place.

I don't see any direction for what kind of team the Raptors are supposed to be and will have for the long run. It's not encouraging when you have younger teams getting their stuff together and having a clearer plan like Atlanta, Portland and maybe even New Jersey while Toronto is down there with Chicago and Indiana. Teams who have one very good player and a mish-mash of assets around them that aren't amounting to much. Luckily for those two teams, they will have control over Rose and Granger for many years. The Raptors don't have that guarantee with Bosh.

Last edited by Qwyjibo : 01-06-2009 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 01-06-2009, 01:33 PM   #39
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Default Re: Bargnani not on block!

We need to get Odom.
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Old 01-06-2009, 02:47 PM   #40
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Default Re: Bargnani not on block!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwyjibo
I don't see any direction for what kind of team the Raptors are supposed to be and will have for the long run. It's not encouraging when you have younger teams getting their stuff together and having a clearer plan like Atlanta, Portland and maybe even New Jersey while Toronto is down there with Chicago and Indiana. Teams who have one very good player and a mish-mash of assets around them that aren't amounting to much. Luckily for those two teams, they will have control over Rose and Granger for many years. The Raptors don't have that guarantee with Bosh.

Plus you could certainly argue that Milwaukee and Chicago both have way more talent to work with then the Raptor's do.
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Old 01-06-2009, 02:49 PM   #41
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Default Re: Bargnani not on block!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywalker
We need to get Odom.

I really like Odom on the Raps, especially if they keep Bargs at center. His rebounding and playmaking and defense would fill a huge void, and Bargs and Bosh are good enough shooters that spacing wouldn't be an issue. Put a legit SG that can defend his position and knock down open 3's/midrange shots and I like that team to go far (assuming Bargs continues to develop his inside game/D/and shot blocking like he has. He rebounding I suspect will never be great)
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Old 01-06-2009, 02:49 PM   #42
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Default Re: Bargnani not on block!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwyjibo
it looks like Bargnani is once again set as the C of the future here.

Wasn't that the plan since he was drafted. Rasho was brought in during Bargnani's maturation and development stage and now JO took Rasho's place for the short term.

I don't think there was any plan to have Bargnani playing the PF or SF spot long-term. It is just because of circumstances that he has been moved around. Certainly not ideal but adjustments are made as the season goes on. If Jamario Moon did as they expected of him Bargnani probably would not have been playing the SF spot at all this season.

He has performed quite decently when he has started at C.
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Old 01-06-2009, 02:57 PM   #43
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Default Re: Bargnani not on block!

Quote:
Originally Posted by huppcap
Wasn't that the plan since he was drafted. Rasho was brought in during Bargnani's maturation and development stage and now JO took Rasho's place for the short term.

I don't think there was any plan to have Bargnani playing the PF or SF spot long-term. It is just because of circumstances that he has been moved around. Certainly not ideal but adjustments are made as the season goes on. If Jamario Moon did as they expected of him Bargnani probably would not have been playing the SF spot at all this season.

He has performed quite decently when he has started at C.

I may be speaking for Q, but I think the point is that it's pretty clear that Bargs best chance of success is at the 4, and we already have one of those.

And as for Moon, that to me would be a mistake to expect anything much from Moon.
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Old 01-06-2009, 03:07 PM   #44
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Default Re: Bargnani not on block!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Funk
I'm in full support of finding a taker for JO.

His massive contract is holding us back big-time.

AGREED. We need to trade it for expiring deals like Marbury's or Marion's. His 23M contract extending through next year will take up half of our team's salary. We could sign 4 key role players for our team to surround Bosh and raise our team's overall talent level. His contract is severely handcuffing our team depth, talent and the GM's ability to make moves. I really don't care if we trade for Marbury and our season goes down the ****ter cause if JO is on our team in 2009, our talent level and depth will be horrendous and we will have yet another disappointing season. This will lead to the potential of Bosh leaving the Raptors to meet with Superman in Orlando in 2010.
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Old 01-06-2009, 03:21 PM   #45
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Default Re: Bargnani not on block!

Quote:
I may be speaking for Q, but I think the point is that it's pretty clear that Bargs best chance of success is at the 4, and we already have one of those.
That and I just don't think you can build a GREAT team (I hope that's what Colangelo is aiming for) with Bargnani at C, unless you have something totally unrealistic like Lebron at SF and Bosh at PF. Stick him at PF beside someone like Howard, Camby, Biedrins, Chandler or that type of tough interior player and great rebounder and yea he can definitely start and the team still has a chance of being great depending on what they have at the other positions.

Quote:
I really like Odom on the Raps, especially if they keep Bargs at center. His rebounding and playmaking and defense would fill a huge void, and Bargs and Bosh are good enough shooters that spacing wouldn't be an issue. Put a legit SG that can defend his position and knock down open 3's/midrange shots and I like that team to go far (assuming Bargs continues to develop his inside game/D/and shot blocking like he has. He rebounding I suspect will never be great)
Me too. The interior D would still struggle but at least you're making up for other deficiencies like Bargnani's rebounding and Calderon's playmaking. Not sure if that's the way to go rather than just addressing those deficiencies directly but again, Bosh at PF and Bargnani at C is the direction the Raptors look like they are going in and there's no changing that. I don't know what kind of $$ it would take to get him to Toronto. Something like 5 years and $50 million like Maggette received?
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