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Old 01-06-2009, 10:56 AM   #16
Qwyjibo
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Default Re: wow pat burrell signs with rays

The Phillies are stupid.

They choose Raul Ibanez at 3 years, $31.5 million over Burrell essentially. They claim they wanted better defense in LF but Ibanez has been just as awful as Burrell the past 2 seasons in the field. Burrell is a better hitter and now cheaper as well. It's not like they badly needed another lefty in the lineup either.
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Old 01-06-2009, 01:47 PM   #17
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Default Re: wow pat burrell signs with rays

Hahahaahahaha. That's gonna be a funny locker room. "Hey guys, so how you like my ring? I can't remember though, who did I play to get it? OH yeah. It was youuu."
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Old 01-06-2009, 01:52 PM   #18
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Default Re: wow pat burrell signs with rays

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwyjibo
The Phillies are stupid.

They choose Raul Ibanez at 3 years, $31.5 million over Burrell essentially. They claim they wanted better defense in LF but Ibanez has been just as awful as Burrell the past 2 seasons in the field. Burrell is a better hitter and now cheaper as well. It's not like they badly needed another lefty in the lineup either.
We've been waiting to get rid of Burrell for a long time now. You know how he bats .250 all the time? He'll bat .200 one month, .300 the next, .200 the next, .300 the next. His inconsistency pisses everyone off. Know what he was in the Dodger series? 6-18, .333 average. Know what he was the very next series in the World Series? 1-14, .071 average. We'll do fine without him.
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Old 01-06-2009, 02:00 PM   #19
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Default Re: wow pat burrell signs with rays

Quote:
Originally Posted by Posterize246
We've been waiting to get rid of Burrell for a long time now. You know how he bats .250 all the time? He'll bat .200 one month, .300 the next, .200 the next, .300 the next. His inconsistency pisses everyone off. Know what he was in the Dodger series? 6-18, .333 average. Know what he was the very next series in the World Series? 1-14, .071 average. We'll do fine without him.
The point is that the Phillies, instead of Burrell, chose a less productive player who is older and costs more.

Who cares whether he hits in April, June or September? At the end of the year he has given the Phillies those #'s I posted earlier and that is very good production. If it's just because it "pissed people off" then you aren't looking at it rationally at all.
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Old 01-06-2009, 02:09 PM   #20
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Default Re: wow pat burrell signs with rays

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwyjibo
The point is that the Phillies, instead of Burrell, chose a less productive player who is older and costs more.

Who cares whether he hits in April, June or September? At the end of the year he has given the Phillies those #'s I posted earlier and that is very good production. If it's just because it "pissed people off" then you aren't looking at it rationally at all.
Who says Ibanez is less productive? Because he hit less home runs? His average and rbi #s are better than Burrell. His strikeouts are lower. He played 5 more games than Burrell. He's been consistently around .300 for his career while Burrell is in the .250 range.

And the main reason we didn't want Burrell? RUNNERS IN SCORING POSITION. Remember how that was killing the Phils in the postseason? Burrell was a .234 hitter with RISP. Raul was a .327 hitter with RISP.

Not getting where Burrell is more productive than Ibanez. Fielding I know nothing about Ibanez, he could be worse for all I know. But as a hitter he's head and shoulders above Burrell. Only thing we lose is power and the Phils have plenty of that without him.

Last edited by Posterize246 : 01-06-2009 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 01-06-2009, 02:16 PM   #21
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Default Re: wow pat burrell signs with rays

Quote:
Who says Ibanez is less productive? Because he hit less home runs? His average and rbi #s are better than Burrell. His strikeouts are lower. He played 5 more games than Burrell. He's been consistently around .300 for his career while Burrell is in the .250 range.
Because Burrell gets on base more (thus creating less outs) and hits for better power.

Who cares what Ibanez's average is if he's not getting on base as often as Burrell? That's the point of hitting. To avoid creating an out and get on base! Burrell does this better. On-base and power are much better indicators of how good a hitter is than batting average.

Also, Ibanez is 36 and Burrell is 32. Which one is more likely to sustain their #'s for the next 2-3 seasons?
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Old 01-06-2009, 02:33 PM   #22
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Default Re: wow pat burrell signs with rays

Quote:
Because Burrell gets on base more (thus creating less outs) and hits for better power.

Yeah, and we have nobody behind Burrell to drive him in. Burrell trotting down to 1st base does not equal runs for this team. Especially when someobody does get a hit behind him and we find out Burrell is possibly the worst base runner on the team. When the catcher (Ruiz) is a better runner than your outfielder, that's not a great thing.

Quote:
Who cares what Ibanez's average is if he's not getting on base as often as Burrell? That's the point of hitting. To avoid creating an out and get on base!

Like I said, Burrell getting on base doesn't produce runs. And uh...their on base % is only a .09 difference.

Quote:
On-base and power are much better indicators of how good a hitter is than batting average.
No it's not. And like I said, the Phils have plenty of power. We lead the league in home runs. It was our runners in scoring position that killed us. At one point we were 1-28 in the World Series with RISP. Give me the .327 hitter in that situation, not the .234 hitter.

Quote:
Also, Ibanez is 36 and Burrell is 32. Which one is more likely to sustain their #'s for the next 2-3 seasons?
This is the only valid point. But what #'s would Burrell really be keeping up? He's only hit above .260 in 2 out of 9 seasons.
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Old 01-06-2009, 02:45 PM   #23
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Default Re: wow pat burrell signs with rays

Couldn't have said it better Posterize...

Ibanez is much more consistent, despite being older. Burrell(while he is a fan favorite) basically didn't show up in the playoffs when we needed him the most

Our RISP suffered(I know because Joe Buck mentioned it about 100 times a game) because the meat of our lineup(which technically includes Burrell) couldn't deliver.

The games should have been blowouts, but they weren't, in fact had we got 50% or each 30% with RISP, we might've taken it in 4.
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Old 01-06-2009, 02:53 PM   #24
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Default Re: wow pat burrell signs with rays

Quote:
Burrell getting on base doesn't produce runs.
Of course it does. It's been shown in studies that take decades of data (not maybe just a couple months of Pat Burrell's career) that getting on base and hitting for power are both strongly correlated with runs scored. This is fact.

Quote:
No it's not.
Can you show me anything that suggests AVG is more important than getting on base and slugging? Any sort of study where this can be proven?

A simple example of my viewpoint:

Quote:
Let's start with batting average. A .300 hitter hits in three out of 10 at-bats. Dandy, except walks don't count as at-bats. You can be a .300 hitter, and your BA remains the same whether you walk 10 times all year or walk 130 times. This punishes players for taking walks, but the player who walks more makes far fewer outs. Offense is not just hitting. It's also avoiding outs. With only 27 per game, each out is precious, and a walk is often as good as a hit.

http://www.slate.com/id/104585/
(need others? use Google, you will find tons supporting this)


Quote:
And uh...their on base % is only a .09 difference.
Past 3 seasons OBP:
Burrell .388 vs Ibanez .353
Burrell .400 vs Ibanez .351
Burrell .367 vs Ibanez .358

Career: Burrell .367 vs Ibanez .346

Looks like a significant difference to me. Silly move by the Phillies.

Last edited by Qwyjibo : 01-06-2009 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 01-06-2009, 03:01 PM   #25
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Default Re: wow pat burrell signs with rays

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwyjibo
Of course it does. It's been shown in studies that take decades of data (not maybe just a couple months of Pat Burrell's career) that getting on base and hitting for power are both strongly correlated with runs scored. This is fact.


Can you show me anything that suggests AVG is more important than getting on base and slugging? Any sort of study where this can be proven?

A simple example of my viewpoint:



http://www.slate.com/id/104585/
(need others? use Google, you will find tons supporting this)
You're getting into a whole other side argument. If your sources are true, then I stand corrected. Don't have time to look all that up.

But if Burrell's on base percentage is .367 and Ibanez' is .358, you think there's a big difference there? If Burrell comes up to bat with a man on 2nd and 2 outs, I want him to drive in that run, not walk to first base.

Phil's old scenario: Guy on 3rd base with 1 out, Burrell comes up to bat and walks. Next Phillie comes up to bat and grounds into a double play. Inning over.

Phil's hopeful new scenario: Guy on 3rd base with 1 out, Ibanez comes up to bat and drives that mother ****er in, no matter how he does it.

Ibanez is the better player for this team, simple as that.
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Old 01-06-2009, 03:10 PM   #26
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Default Re: wow pat burrell signs with rays

Burrell>>Ibanez
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Old 01-06-2009, 03:14 PM   #27
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Default Re: wow pat burrell signs with rays

In that specific situation? Maybe. But in the long-run you'll score more runs with a guy like Burrell than Ibanez. Baseball is all about long-run results. Ryan Howard was awful last year in April but everyone knew it wasn't going to continue that way since he's a good hitter. Surely enough, it almost balanced out over time throughout the season. Still was a down year compared to past couple seasons but still a good year overall.

Going into the next 2 years, I'll take Put Burrell in LF over Raul Ibanez and it doesn't matter what the rest of the team is. Maybe only if I REALLY needed a lefty hitter to balance out the lineup but that clearly isn't the case in Philly where their best players are already lefties or switch hitters.
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Old 04-15-2009, 04:42 PM   #28
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Default Re: wow pat burrell signs with rays

So far looks like I was right

Burrell through 9 games:

.231 average
1 Home Run
3 RBI
4 runs scored
.323 on base %
.423 slug %


Raul Ibanez through 7 games:

.276 average
3 Home Runs
6 RBI
7 run scored
.323 on base %
.690 slug %


And the basis of my argument back then (Runners in Scoring Position):

Pat Burrell (9 games): .250 BA, .222 OBP, .375 slug%, 0 HR, 2 RBI
Raul Ibanez (7 games): .273 BA, .333 OBP, .545 slug%, 1 HR, 4 RBI
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Old 04-15-2009, 04:49 PM   #29
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Default Re: wow pat burrell signs with rays

im not sure which is more pathetic.. u remember this thread or you bothering to bring this up
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Old 04-15-2009, 05:01 PM   #30
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Default Re: wow pat burrell signs with rays

Quote:
Originally Posted by canadianballer
im not sure which is more pathetic.. u remember this thread or you bothering to bring this up
you're speaking on pathetic?
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