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Old 01-08-2009, 03:25 PM   #16
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Default Re: No Josh Howard for Raptors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
Agreed. So I will wait to see how it plays out. The only major piece that's going anywhere (if anyone) is JO, so all this discussion about Bargnani isn't much point.

Wow, we finally agree on one thing. The record being the most important stat.

lol
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Old 01-08-2009, 03:35 PM   #17
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Default Re: No Josh Howard for Raptors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huppcap
Wow, we finally agree on one thing. The record being the most important stat.

lol
indeed. And like most others, if we suddenly became a top 4-5 team in the East with our current roster, i'd be very surprised but i'd still be happy about it. So, we'll see.
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Old 01-08-2009, 03:38 PM   #18
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Default Re: No Josh Howard for Raptors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
indeed. And like most others, if we suddenly became a top 4-5 team in the East with our current roster, i'd be very surprised but i'd still be happy about it. So, we'll see.


It is interesting to think though, if we had say Okur as our C right now and Bargs didn't exist, would anyone really think the Raptors team was going to do anything substantial?

That is the issue I have with Bargs and I guess the Raptor's as a whole.
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Old 01-08-2009, 03:59 PM   #19
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Default Re: No Josh Howard for Raptors.

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Originally Posted by RapsFan
It is interesting to think though, if we had say Okur as our C right now and Bargs didn't exist, would anyone really think the Raptors team was going to do anything substantial?

That is the issue I have with Bargs and I guess the Raptor's as a whole.
Exactly. I think people are misunderstanding it for some deep routed hatred of Bargs. Yeah he's underperformed, but the major issue is the type of player he on the type of team we have. People think that despite being cut out of the mold of an Okur, solid interior defense, rebounding, and a consistent back to the basket game are things that he can learn. Myself, I believe he can improve in those areas, but it's never gonna be something he's really great at.
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Old 01-08-2009, 04:03 PM   #20
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Default Re: No Josh Howard for Raptors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
indeed. And like most others, if we suddenly became a top 4-5 team in the East with our current roster, i'd be very surprised but i'd still be happy about it. So, we'll see.

Obviously the biggest hole they have to fill is the swing position. I don't think they can be a top 4/5 team in the East until they do that. How they do that is up for debate. Trade O'Neal? Trade Bargnani? Wait for 2010? Other?

It is in Colangelo's hands.
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Old 01-08-2009, 04:11 PM   #21
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Default Re: No Josh Howard for Raptors.

I think most teams would like to have a 4 and 5 that compliment each other. Unfortunately JO is on his last legs. If you had a player like him, then either Bosh OR Bargs (if he plays this way) would be a fine fit. But to me, I just don't like them both on the team together.

Utah has Okur, but Boozer is unlike Bosh. Boozer can hit the jumper, but he plays more with his back to the basket and is a great rebounder. In Dallas, you have Dirk, and then a guy like Dampier. KG shoots tons of jumpers now, but has Perkins. Philly has two guys that play down low and it's not working out. Orlando has Dwight inside and Shard outside. Gasol is talented enough to paly from the high post to work well with Bynum.

I think there are countless examples of where a 4/5 can work together when they have complimentary games.

That is the real issue, no matter how great Bargs plays. Two finesse bigs I don't think will work in terms of meaningful wins.
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Old 01-09-2009, 11:32 AM   #22
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Default Re: No Josh Howard for Raptors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huppcap
Agree.

(Okay this took me a bit of time.)

I looked at the game logs and games where each O'Neal and Bargnani scored 3 pts or more above their season average. So for O'Neal that would be games where he scored 17+ and for Bargnani where he scored 15+.

In those games the Raptors are 3-8 when O'Neal scores 17+ points per game and 6-5 when Bargnani scores 15+ points per game. There is only one game where O'Neal scores 17+ and Bargnani 15+ in the same game. And that was the Nov. 12th loss to the 76ers at home. O'Neal had 19 and Bargnani 15. Bosh had 30.

In the games O'Neal had 17+ points per game Bosh took 15 FGA per game, FG% was 47%, 8.5 RPG and 2 APG and 21.6 PPG.

In the games Bargnani had 15+ points per game Bosh took 18 FGA per game, FG% was 49%, 10.7 RPG and 2.8 APG and 25.9 PPG.

Bosh took one more FTA per game in those Bargnani games.

O'Neal averaged 8 RPG, 2.4 BPG and 1.7 TOPG in those 11 games when he scored 17+. Bargnani averaged 5.7 RPG, 1.9 BPG and 2.0 TOPG in those 11 games when he scored 15+.

In O'Neal's case the wins came against 76ers, Clippers and Kings; all below .500% teams. In Bargnani's case 3 of the wins came against Heat, Rockets and Magic; all .500% or better. 2 of those wins in games O'Neal did not play.

O'Neal obviously draws more charges, plays with more of an edge and is more of an intimidator than Bargnani which of course does not show up in the stats. O'Neal also plays with more outwardly emotion. Take that stuff for what it is worth. It is important too.

But very interesting stats. They say something. I think the most important stat is the record.


Huupcap, good job digging this up.
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Old 01-09-2009, 01:15 PM   #23
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Default Re: No Josh Howard for Raptors.

To me, it's easy to use stats to try and prove a theory in regards to just about anything. Stats could be used for the pro's and con's of the very same argument. For example, look at this info from 82games.com:

With Bargs on the floor, on average the offense scores 95.6 points to the oppenents 103.2 which is a net difference of -7.6 with a win percentage of 32%.

With Jermaine O'neal on the floor the offense scores 92.6 and allows 96.9, so scoring is down by 3 points but opponent scoring is down by 6.3, so overall point differential is -4.1. with a win% of 48.1.

The stats also show that 76% of Bargnani's shot selection is jumpshooting with 24% being inside.

O'neals stats show 66% of his shot selection being jumpshooting with 34% being inside.

Bargnani draws fouls 8.7% of the time to Jermaine's 11.4%

The top 5 man floor unit is shown to be Bosh/O'neal/Moon/Kapono/Calderon with a win percentage of 61.5% to Bargnani's best 5 man unit of Calderon/Parker/Moon/Bosh/Bargnani which has a win perentage of 42.8%.

Bargnani's PER at the C is 23.6 but the opposing C's per is 24.9. Conversely, JO's PER at the C is 18.4 to the opponents 15.7.

So, this better takes into account the offensive/defensive tradeoff.
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Old 01-09-2009, 01:41 PM   #24
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Default Re: No Josh Howard for Raptors.

i'd much rather have Bustnani than JHO. Bargs wants to play here and thats rare lets not **** this up rap fans.
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Old 01-09-2009, 02:10 PM   #25
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Default Re: No Josh Howard for Raptors.

huupcap had just looked up some statistics to validate / invalidate an observation I made. Everybody should draw their own conclusions from those statistics.

I was thanking huupcap for the effort he made in looking it up. I thought it was interesting, but as you pointed out, it can't be ruled conclusive. Statistics are to easily manipulated to ever be use solely to draw conclusions. But it did validate my observation in my opinion.
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Old 01-09-2009, 02:15 PM   #26
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Default Re: No Josh Howard for Raptors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by b4ball
huupcap had just looked up some statistics to validate / invalidate an observation I made. Everybody should draw their own conclusions from those statistics.

I was thanking huupcap for the effort he made in looking it up. I thought it was interesting, but as you pointed out, it can't be ruled conclusive. Statistics are to easily manipulated to ever be use solely to draw conclusions. But it did validate my observation in my opinion.
fair enough
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Old 01-09-2009, 05:45 PM   #27
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Default Re: No Josh Howard for Raptors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
To me, it's easy to use stats to try and prove a theory in regards to just about anything. Stats could be used for the pro's and con's of the very same argument. For example, look at this info from 82games.com:

With Bargs on the floor, on average the offense scores 95.6 points to the oppenents 103.2 which is a net difference of -7.6 with a win percentage of 32%.

With Jermaine O'neal on the floor the offense scores 92.6 and allows 96.9, so scoring is down by 3 points but opponent scoring is down by 6.3, so overall point differential is -4.1. with a win% of 48.1.

The stats also show that 76% of Bargnani's shot selection is jumpshooting with 24% being inside.

O'neals stats show 66% of his shot selection being jumpshooting with 34% being inside.

Bargnani draws fouls 8.7% of the time to Jermaine's 11.4%

The top 5 man floor unit is shown to be Bosh/O'neal/Moon/Kapono/Calderon with a win percentage of 61.5% to Bargnani's best 5 man unit of Calderon/Parker/Moon/Bosh/Bargnani which has a win perentage of 42.8%.

Bargnani's PER at the C is 23.6 but the opposing C's per is 24.9. Conversely, JO's PER at the C is 18.4 to the opponents 15.7.

So, this better takes into account the offensive/defensive tradeoff.

Understand what you are saying.

This website really goes over the top on stats. How do they calculate this 5 man win percentage? It is not like the same 5 guys play the whole game every game. Must be based on something like point differential while these players are in the game?

Problem with a stat crazy website is that it does not take into consideration intangibles.
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Old 01-09-2009, 05:51 PM   #28
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Default Re: No Josh Howard for Raptors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
To me, it's easy to use stats to try and prove a theory in regards to just about anything. Stats could be used for the pro's and con's of the very same argument. For example, look at this info from 82games.com:

With Bargs on the floor, on average the offense scores 95.6 points to the oppenents 103.2 which is a net difference of -7.6 with a win percentage of 32%.

With Jermaine O'neal on the floor the offense scores 92.6 and allows 96.9, so scoring is down by 3 points but opponent scoring is down by 6.3, so overall point differential is -4.1. with a win% of 48.1.

The stats also show that 76% of Bargnani's shot selection is jumpshooting with 24% being inside.

O'neals stats show 66% of his shot selection being jumpshooting with 34% being inside.
Bargnani draws fouls 8.7% of the time to Jermaine's 11.4%

The top 5 man floor unit is shown to be Bosh/O'neal/Moon/Kapono/Calderon with a win percentage of 61.5% to Bargnani's best 5 man unit of Calderon/Parker/Moon/Bosh/Bargnani which has a win perentage of 42.8%.

Bargnani's PER at the C is 23.6 but the opposing C's per is 24.9. Conversely, JO's PER at the C is 18.4 to the opponents 15.7.

So, this better takes into account the offensive/defensive tradeoff.

66% jumpshots...
i havent looked up the stats but isnt that kinda like Bosh?
wait, does that mean JO cant play with Bosh?
(sarcasm for all those who say Bosh and Bargnani cant be a good 4-5 tandem)
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Old 01-09-2009, 06:01 PM   #29
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Default Re: No Josh Howard for Raptors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hassano
66% jumpshots...
i havent looked up the stats but isnt that kinda like Bosh?
wait, does that mean JO cant play with Bosh?
(sarcasm for all those who say Bosh and Bargnani cant be a good 4-5 tandem)
75% for Bargs, 66% for JO, 64% for Bosh, which is almost the same as JO except for the number that Bosh draws fouls 20% of the time.
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Old 01-09-2009, 06:04 PM   #30
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Default Re: No Josh Howard for Raptors.

quite the interesting site actually, I looked at quite a few players earlier. One thing I saw that doesn't really surprise me is that Calderon of this year takes 85% of his shots from the perimeter and TJ Ford (07-08) took 66% of his shots from the perimeter. I'm not saying that TJ is better, just that he was better at penetrating and drawing the D and/or drawing fouls.
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