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Old 01-12-2009, 12:04 PM   #46
RAPSCANWIN
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Default Re: Raptors Back - Back with Celtics Thread

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Old 01-12-2009, 01:48 PM   #47
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Default Re: Raptors Back - Back with Celtics Thread

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Originally Posted by bokes15
I've said this before and i'll say it again. The coach can tell you how to play lockdown D, design a good defensive system and drill the point accross in practice but you have to have the right type of players to implement it. Joey Graham isn't gonna become Caron Butler, Jason Kapono isn't gonna become Rip Hamilton, and so on down the line. We're screwed until at least 2010 in that regard, barring a miracle trade.

I agree with you somewhat. But if the philosophy is to clog the middle and help out down below with no regards to staying on a guy at the 3pt line then it is more on the coach.

In terms of what you are referring to player wise don't know if you are referring to it being more physical or more mental or both.

Regardless just looking at some quick highlights. Garnett posting Bargnani mid-post side closest to Celtic bench. Some sort of switch earlier Bosh now guarding Rondo who is actually standing on out of boundsline in front of Celtic bench. What the heck is Bosh doing right at the 3pt. line guarding Rondo. Scouting report would say he is not a good deep outside shot but a good cutter and penetrator. Wake up Bosh. Get off him a bit so you can be in position to help Bargnani if he needs it on Garnett and prevent Rondo from cutting. If he needs to help Bargnani or double on Garnett then best case Rondo gets ball from Garnett far away from basket. Garnett gets ball fed from up top. Rondo cuts baseline. Bosh now has to chase Rondo who now receives pass from Garnett. Parker is cheating down low on other side. If Bosh is chasing Rondo why is Parker stepping to Rondo who will likely not make a turn around jumper over Bosh or have a tough time making layup on Bosh. Rondo dishes to Allen who is just standing there wide open (again scouting report would obviously state don't leave wide open on 3pt line). Team philosophy to clog middle or mental mistake by Parker not to mention Bosh again? This had nothing to do physically or athetically.

Next 3pt shot. Rondo dribbles down from top of key across towards Celtic bench down to baseline. Calderon plays decent defense cuts him off so he has to pass out to a wide open Ray Allen who is just sliding along the 3pt line. Parker decided to take a swipe of the ball as Rondo came dribbling by but missed. Allen slides over a bit for a better passing angle for Rondo. Clog middle or dumb risk and mental mistake by Parker? Sure if the swipe resulted in a steal great. If the guy Parker is guarding is not a 3pt threat then sure play the percentages and go for swipe and steal.

Next 3pter. More of a combination of things. Calderon gets beat by Rondo dribbling to basket. Bosh comes off of Garnett to help on Rondo who dishes to Garnett who is mid baseline in front of Boston bench. Moon who is covering Allen cheats down from up top then goes to help on Garnett who passes to a sliding Ray Allen who is wide open. Yes Calderon allowing penetration does not help but you cannot move that far off of Allen.

I know it is easier said than done (& some what hindsight) but if a guy has a hothand to start the game perhaps staying on him and risking giving up a 2pt 15 foot shot where a guy has recovered and is going out to his man is better than leaving another (a 3pt. specialist) wide open to hit another 3.

There were others where he ran off a couple of consecutive screens; first Big Baby and then off of Garnett. Those are more difficult to guard. And in those some mental mistakes in recognizing what was happening.

Anyhow, Allen it did not help Allen was in the zone either.
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Old 01-13-2009, 10:19 AM   #48
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Default Re: Raptors Back - Back with Celtics Thread

CB4 is no where close to be a superstar. He's nothing in front of KG. Played like a chicken. He's 6/11 for the night. Yet first look at it didn't seem bad at all. But he's 4/5 after Q1.
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Old 01-13-2009, 11:12 AM   #49
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Default Re: Raptors Back - Back with Celtics Thread

KG, is just a great defender ...... KG shuts down all the post players regardless and for bosh, bosh uses his quickness but KG because he is not your typical big man he is very long and active which will give bosh problems ..... Bosh is a superstar but KG has superstar defense ...... not to mention KG is like 10 years older and more experience .....
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Old 01-13-2009, 11:16 AM   #50
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Default Re: Raptors Back - Back with Celtics Thread

First I would like to say I hate Boston. Granted their 3 all-stars always make the necessarily plays to win. I hate their cockiness and loud mouth chattering and the preferential calls they get from the referees.

Another tough loss.

And another team record set by Boston against the Raptors; most points in an overtime.

Bargnani continues to impress. Unfortunately his game tying 3 was all for not but it was great to see him hit a big shot. Liked how he gave Scalabrine a bit of a push when Scalabrine was covering him up top of the key. He is slowly getting a bit more feisty. Maybe Bosh could learn something from him.

And speaking of Bosh; another let down against a good team. In order for the Raptors to win against top teams they need their best player to have an above average game. They need him to have an exceptional game. You look at Boston the past two games in each of them one of their top players had an exceptional game.

Bosh is obviously scared and intimidated by Garnett. How else can you explain Garnett getting right up into his face on that one possession in front of the Boston bench. (Of course you have the chatter mouths at the bench taunting Bosh as well.) Rule wise Bosh is allowed some space but he has to create it. He can't allow Garnett to take it away. If Bosh would jab step or swing his arms in front of him and Garnett's face is there then so be it. Even if Bosh gets called for a foul his elbow should have swung in Garnett's face. I could see O'Neal or Graham doing that. It was so frustrating seeing Bosh against Garnett; screaming at the TV to take Garnett on. Also screaming where is the foul call on Garnett who is holding and clutching. The referees (who I think must be intimidated by Garnett as well since he gets away with lots of crap) are not going to call anything unless Bosh gets more aggressive. He has to get the attention of the referees by fighting for position.

Albeit I am not one to criticize coaching why is there still not more movement on offense? Why were they not setting screens for Bosh to try to get him open or a mismatch? (Bosh was shut down just like in the first game in Boston.) Why not have Bargnani set a screen for Bosh? Why not have Bargnani post up down low when he is being guarded by Leon Powe instead of standing up at the 3pt? (I guess to open it up for Bosh but he was not doing anything to earn the right to get the ball.) Bargnani does have some post game. Certainly he could shoot over Powe. You could put it on Bargnani shying away from the post but I don't think it was totally his decision. Bosh and Bargnani have shown they can feed off of each other. Set screens for each other and make cuts to the basket. I know it is easier said then done and the Celtics are a good defensive team but come on, the Raptors offense in the 4th is what lost them the game. It was pathetic. At least try different things instead of watching Bosh get manhandled by Garnett.

He needs edge. If he does not have it by now I don't think he will ever have it. He goes to the basket and gets ganged fouled by the Celtics; none of them help him up. On the other end he is always helping the other team up after fouling them.

I don't know if Bosh has what it takes to be a leader on a contender.
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Old 01-13-2009, 11:26 AM   #51
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Default Re: Raptors Back - Back with Celtics Thread

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Originally Posted by huppcap
First I would like to say I hate Boston. Granted their 3 all-stars always make the necessarily plays to win. I hate their cockiness and loud mouth chattering and the preferential calls they get from the referees.

Another tough loss.

And another team record set by Boston against the Raptors; most points in an overtime.

Bargnani continues to impress. Unfortunately his game tying 3 was all for not but it was great to see him hit a big shot. Liked how he gave Scalabrine a bit of a push when Scalabrine was covering him up top of the key. He is slowly getting a bit more feisty. Maybe Bosh could learn something from him.

And speaking of Bosh; another let down against a good team. In order for the Raptors to win against top teams they need their best player to have an above average game. They need him to have an exceptional game. You look at Boston the past two games in each of them one of their top players had an exceptional game.

Bosh is obviously scared and intimidated by Garnett. How else can you explain Garnett getting right up into his face on that one possession in front of the Boston bench. (Of course you have the chatter mouths at the bench taunting Bosh as well.) Rule wise Bosh is allowed some space but he has to create it. He can't allow Garnett to take it away. If Bosh would jab step or swing his arms in front of him and Garnett's face is there then so be it. Even if Bosh gets called for a foul his elbow should have swung in Garnett's face. I could see O'Neal or Graham doing that. It was so frustrating seeing Bosh against Garnett; screaming at the TV to take Garnett on. Also screaming where is the foul call on Garnett who is holding and clutching. The referees (who I think must be intimidated by Garnett as well since he gets away with lots of crap) are not going to call anything unless Bosh gets more aggressive. He has to get the attention of the referees by fighting for position.

Albeit I am not one to criticize coaching why is there still not more movement on offense? Why were they not setting screens for Bosh to try to get him open or a mismatch? (Bosh was shut down just like in the first game in Boston.) Why not have Bargnani set a screen for Bosh? Why not have Bargnani post up down low when he is being guarded by Leon Powe instead of standing up at the 3pt? (I guess to open it up for Bosh but he was not doing anything to earn the right to get the ball.) Bargnani does have some post game. Certainly he could shoot over Powe. You could put it on Bargnani shying away from the post but I don't think it was totally his decision. Bosh and Bargnani have shown they can feed off of each other. Set screens for each other and make cuts to the basket. I know it is easier said then done and the Celtics are a good defensive team but come on, the Raptors offense in the 4th is what lost them the game. It was pathetic. At least try different things instead of watching Bosh get manhandled by Garnett.

He needs edge. If he does not have it by now I don't think he will ever have it. He goes to the basket and gets ganged fouled by the Celtics; none of them help him up. On the other end he is always helping the other team up after fouling them.

I don't know if Bosh has what it takes to be a leader on a contender.

Stop all this hate on Bosh

Garnett is ALL-NBA Defender and make to mention is almost the same type of player as Chris Bosh ( Skill Set )

How can you hate on Bosh,

Who else can he pass it to down the clutch?

Kapono? No he only chucks up 3's
Parker? No he only chucks up LONG 2's
Soloman? No do you want a turnover?
Roko? No do you want a crappy float shot?
Bargnani? Maybe

Really if we get a WING, he would open EVERYTHING up for Chris Bosh in the post ......

The Wing could drive the ball and dish it too chris bosh .....

The Wing could iso ( like Paul ) and drive it

The Wing could create double teams ......

Alot of people here don't understand just HOW MUCH a decent wing player would help this team out .....

In the clutch all we do is give the ball to bosh in the post or let parker dash it up ......

ALL THE GOOD TEAMS ISO THERE WINGS TOP OF THE KEY AND LET HIM GOTO WORK.... PICK/ROLL OR DISH .....

We don't have that .....

THINK ABOUT THIS!

Wing iso at the top of the key .... bosh doesn't screen and role .... you can't leave the Wing because he will drive and finish ..... you can't leave Bosh because he will roll and finish ....

A Decent wing doesn't SO MUCH for this team it would be very nice ......
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Old 01-13-2009, 12:14 PM   #52
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Default Re: Raptors Back - Back with Celtics Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrcp3
Stop all this hate on Bosh

Garnett is ALL-NBA Defender and make to mention is almost the same type of player as Chris Bosh ( Skill Set )

How can you hate on Bosh,

Who else can he pass it to down the clutch?

Kapono? No he only chucks up 3's
Parker? No he only chucks up LONG 2's
Soloman? No do you want a turnover?
Roko? No do you want a crappy float shot?
Bargnani? Maybe

Really if we get a WING, he would open EVERYTHING up for Chris Bosh in the post ......

The Wing could drive the ball and dish it too chris bosh .....

The Wing could iso ( like Paul ) and drive it

The Wing could create double teams ......

Alot of people here don't understand just HOW MUCH a decent wing player would help this team out .....

In the clutch all we do is give the ball to bosh in the post or let parker dash it up ......

ALL THE GOOD TEAMS ISO THERE WINGS TOP OF THE KEY AND LET HIM GOTO WORK.... PICK/ROLL OR DISH .....

We don't have that .....

THINK ABOUT THIS!

Wing iso at the top of the key .... bosh doesn't screen and role .... you can't leave the Wing because he will drive and finish ..... you can't leave Bosh because he will roll and finish ....

A Decent wing doesn't SO MUCH for this team it would be very nice ......

I don't hate Bosh. Sorry to give you that impression but I was frustrated at seeing him manhandled by Garnett. Yes Garnett is a great defensive player but he also does get into foul trouble because he walks a fine line. Some nights referees actually call him for clutching and grabbing. If Bosh played a bit more aggressive to get position Garnett would have likely been called for more fouls and that could have changed the game. Bosh needs to fake a cut one way and then go the other to make some room but he hardly did that against Garnett last night. Garnett has a tendency to stick out his legs and feet too much as well which can cause fouls. When Garnett was clutching and grabbing Bosh needs to swing his arms and get them up to get the referees attention. The one time he got the ball on the wing he needed to take th ball off the dribble and go to the basket. There are times he holds the ball when facing the basket for too long and lets his defensive cover get position. When he gets the ball and makes a quick fake right away he is often successful.

And I understand a good wing would open things up for everyone including Bosh.

He does good things. He works hard. Rather have him than Carter.

Let's face it. If it was not for him tipping the ball out of Garnett's hands at the end Bargnani would not have got that game tying 3. I meant to mention that in my earlier post. However it may not have got to that if Bosh and the Raptors were able to do something to get him in a position to be successful. Our top player needs to get to the line 6 - 8 times in the last quarter in games like this.

Your top player who is expected to be a leader can't shy away from an intimidator like Garnett. I am questioning his toughness. Not all top PFs are shut down by Garnett in the 4th quarter every game they play him.

Bosh is a good player and can be an exceptional player on some nights.

Last edited by huppcap : 01-13-2009 at 12:20 PM.
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Old 01-13-2009, 12:21 PM   #53
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Default Re: Raptors Back - Back with Celtics Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by huppcap
I don't hate Bosh. Sorry to give you that impression but I was frustrated at seeing him manhandled by Garnett. Yes Garnett is a great defensive player but he also does get into foul trouble because he walks a fine line. Some nights referees actually call him for clutching and grabbing. If Bosh played a bit more aggressive to get position Garnett would have likely been called for more fouls and that could have changed the game. Bosh needs to fake a cut one way and then go the other to make some room but he hardly did that against Garnett last night. Garnett has a tendency to stick out his legs and feet too much as well which can cause fouls. When Garnett was clutching and grabbing Bosh needs to swing his arms and get them up to get the referees attention. The one time he got the ball on the wing he needed to take th ball off the dribble and go to the basket. There are times he holds the ball when facing the basket for too long and lets his defensive cover get position. When he gets the ball and makes a quick fake right away he is often successful.

And I understand a good wing would open things up for everyone including Bosh.

He does good things. He works hard. Rather have him than Carter.

Let's face it. If it was not for him tipping the ball out of Garnett's hands at the end Bargnani would not have got that game tying 3. I meant to mention that in my earlier post. However it may not have got to that if Bosh and the Raptors were able to do something to get him in a position to be successful. Our top player needs to get to the line 6 - 8 times in the last quarter in games like this.

Your top player who is expected to be a leader can't shy away from an intimidator like Garnett. I am questioning his toughness. Not all top PFs are shut down by Garnett in the 4th quarter every game they play him.

Bosh is a good player and can be an exceptional player on some nights.

Yea that's true but member Chris Bosh can't just take the ball and post up ..... the guards have to give it too him late in games down low and in most cases THERE NOT! Did you see bosh run to the 3 point line and try and dribble the ball late in the game vs Boston? WTF WAS THAT, it's the guards job to get the ball to bosh down low and in most cases they don't late in games for some odd reason ........
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Old 01-13-2009, 12:45 PM   #54
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Default Re: Raptors Back - Back with Celtics Thread

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Originally Posted by jrcp3
Yea that's true but member Chris Bosh can't just take the ball and post up ..... the guards have to give it too him late in games down low and in most cases THERE NOT! Did you see bosh run to the 3 point line and try and dribble the ball late in the game vs Boston? WTF WAS THAT, it's the guards job to get the ball to bosh down low and in most cases they don't late in games for some odd reason ........

IMO both share responsibility; Bosh and the guard. If Bosh can't get a position in the post how is the guard going to throw the ball to him just the same as if a guard can't get himself at the right angle or in a position to pass. Bosh did not get the ball enough in the 4th and OT; his fault and the team's fault.
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Old 01-13-2009, 01:03 PM   #55
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Default Re: Raptors Back - Back with Celtics Thread

If I was playing a game where the other team was guaranteed the win and they do a bounce pass dunk with one second to finish the game, I would fight whoever dunked that ball and embarrassed my team. Well maybe not Leon Powe, he's pretty big. But Rondo, I would boot **** that lil' troll in the face.
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Old 01-13-2009, 03:42 PM   #56
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Default Re: Raptors Back - Back with Celtics Thread

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Originally Posted by huppcap
IMO both share responsibility; Bosh and the guard. If Bosh can't get a position in the post how is the guard going to throw the ball to him just the same as if a guard can't get himself at the right angle or in a position to pass. Bosh did not get the ball enough in the 4th and OT; his fault and the team's fault.
He's been pushing around by KG all the time. WT*, play like men. Bargnani played much better than him. At least he's not afraid of anybody.
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