Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > NBA Team Forums > Toronto Raptors Forum

Toronto Raptors Forum Toronto Raptors message board - Toronto Raptors forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-13-2009, 12:13 AM   #1
bokes15
Playoffs!
 
bokes15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York City
Posts: 9,272
bokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster
Default 5000th post, and my thoughts on the current state of the Raps

This has quite honestly been one of the hardest seasons to watch as a Raptors fan. It's not because of our overall win-loss record, we've had worse. It's because of the WAY we keep losing, that's what is so frustrating. We build up a lead in the first half, and spend the third quarter + half of the fourth quarter holding off the opposing team until their perimeter players end up eating us alive in the final 2-3 minutes and we have no answers but to catch and shoot pretty much.

So: This summer we trade away TJ + Rasho's 2009 expirer + a first rounder (Hibbert) + Maeco Baston for Jermaine O'neal's 2010 expirer.

Was that a good move?

In my opinion the answer is a resounding no.

Think about this.... For all this talk about 2010, Rasho was expiring this summer and TJ Ford next summer, so both would've been off the books regardless.

I remember reading this analysis on ESPN when the trade went down.

Quote:
The players come out of it in better shape, too. O'Neal and Ford get new leases on life after being sprung from difficult situations. Bosh finally gets a frontcourt partner to do the dirty work for him. Calderon gets starter's minutes and some added salary leverage. Even throw-ins Nesterovic and Baston are likely to get more burn in Indy than they would have in Toronto. Only Bargnani loses.
Bargnani is obviously a player that BC never had any intentions of trading, so why would he pick up JO? If we were gonna go to the bargain bin for a backup point (Solomon and Ukic) then shouldn't we have tried to trade Rasho's expirer + TJ + 1st round draft pick for that wing we so desperately need?

So I guess in short summary, I do believe that a significant wing ISO player would make a significant difference, but I believe that various moves have handicapped us to the point where all we have to hope for (from a trading perspective) is a team biting on JO's contract and/or any combination of Parker/Kapono/Moon/Graham, who with all due respect aren't offering a whole lot. So this season doesn't give me a lot to look forward to. All I can say is that I really hope that BC is working the phones day and night, but if we stay as is, I don't even want to see this team in the playoffs this season.
bokes15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2009, 01:09 AM   #2
GoodTrade
I airball my layups
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 52
GoodTrade has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: 5000th post, and my thoughts on the current state of the Raps

THe deal BC shoulda made was TJ straight up for GWall. That offer was on the table all night long. He shoulda taken it. Then we would have Rasho's expiring at the end of the year and still have our 1st pick which coulda been good. Bad offseason but its not to late to correct some of the wrong. There is no way to fully recover from that deal tho.
GoodTrade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2009, 01:15 AM   #3
Zan Tabak
Only the finest
 
Zan Tabak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: -lll──lll-
Posts: 3,805
Zan Tabak has an incredible reputation hereZan Tabak has an incredible reputation hereZan Tabak has an incredible reputation hereZan Tabak has an incredible reputation hereZan Tabak has an incredible reputation hereZan Tabak has an incredible reputation hereZan Tabak has an incredible reputation hereZan Tabak has an incredible reputation here
Default Re: 5000th post, and my thoughts on the current state of the Raps

In short, they would of been better off going after an effective wing player. but you know what they say about hindsight.

Good job on the 5000
Zan Tabak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2009, 01:20 AM   #4
Qwyjibo
Yankee.Hotel.Foxtrot
 
Qwyjibo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 12,399
Qwyjibo is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterQwyjibo is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterQwyjibo is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterQwyjibo is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterQwyjibo is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterQwyjibo is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterQwyjibo is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterQwyjibo is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterQwyjibo is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterQwyjibo is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterQwyjibo is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster
Default Re: 5000th post, and my thoughts on the current state of the Raps

Quote:
but you know what they say about hindsight.
It's on the GM to do his job right in the first place and not have to use this excuse. Same goes for draft picks and other moves. How is Colangelo going to be judged if not for the moves he's made in the past?

Since it looks like the Raptors are now back to "Bargnani at C" mode then the O'Neal was a complete waste of assets and the Raptors have little chance to be a good team this season or the next. Bosh is basically going to re-sign for the money or blind faith that this team will turn it around eventually. I can assure you he's demanding a trade out of Toronto if they are still a mediocre at best team then. And really, who could blame him at that point?
Qwyjibo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2009, 09:15 AM   #5
bokes15
Playoffs!
 
bokes15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York City
Posts: 9,272
bokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster
Default Re: 5000th post, and my thoughts on the current state of the Raps

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zan Tabak
In short, they would of been better off going after an effective wing player. but you know what they say about hindsight.

Good job on the 5000
For a general manager it's all about foresight, not hindsight. The GM is supposed to be able to assess the strengths and weaknesses of a team in the off-season before that team even steps foot on the court. He has to have a clear vision of what type of team he wants and stick to that path in order to be successful.

And as Q just said, the fact that Bargs is now probably gonna remain our starting C, it shows the summer trade to be a complete and total waste. Not that i'm saying we should've kept our team from last year, but I don't know how he really could've thought Jason Kapono/Anthony Parker/Moon/Graham were gonna be adequate enough for us to make some serious noise in the east.
bokes15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2009, 11:18 AM   #6
jrcp3
GuardsWinChampionships
 
jrcp3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: City of God
Posts: 1,192
jrcp3 has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: 5000th post, and my thoughts on the current state of the Raps

Jack Armstrong said on the radio this morning that signing O'Neil was the best thing that happen.

Reasons are,

At the start of the season Bargnani was on the bench with Humphries, Bargnani probably looked around and say Humphries beside him on the bench and said WTF?

This created competiton and bargnani knew the only way he could get minutes if he started to play hard and well .......

By O'Neil getting hurt, this gave Bargnani the chance to play and as we all know now he can play ......

The reason we got O'Neil was because Colengelo wasn't sold on Bargnani at the time because he wasn't showing improvement .... now he is playing great because he knows if he doesn't play well O'Neil will get all the mintues ......

So in the end O'Neil was actually the real reason why Bargnani is starting to perform well !

Well this is what Jack Armstrong said this morning on the radio and to me it makes sense too ......
jrcp3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2009, 11:20 AM   #7
Zan Tabak
Only the finest
 
Zan Tabak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: -lll──lll-
Posts: 3,805
Zan Tabak has an incredible reputation hereZan Tabak has an incredible reputation hereZan Tabak has an incredible reputation hereZan Tabak has an incredible reputation hereZan Tabak has an incredible reputation hereZan Tabak has an incredible reputation hereZan Tabak has an incredible reputation hereZan Tabak has an incredible reputation here
Default Re: 5000th post, and my thoughts on the current state of the Raps

At the time, everyone and their mother thought JO was a good acquisition. The Raps seemed to lack interior toughness and Rebounding (which they still do) and it looked as if a player like JO would give them what they needed.

But what really happened is JO and Bosh didn't really gel nice together and the way Bargs can stretch out defenses(giving Bosh more room to operate) made the team more competitive without Jermaine. Tough to have that kind of foresight, cause the Raps looked as if they were in need of a player like that.
Zan Tabak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2009, 11:22 AM   #8
bokes15
Playoffs!
 
bokes15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York City
Posts: 9,272
bokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster
Default Re: 5000th post, and my thoughts on the current state of the Raps

I don't believe that for a second. BC was sold on Bargnani from day 1. At most i'd say that the move could've been to speed up his development and take the immediate pressure off by having JO as our starting C.
bokes15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2009, 11:25 AM   #9
bokes15
Playoffs!
 
bokes15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York City
Posts: 9,272
bokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster
Default Re: 5000th post, and my thoughts on the current state of the Raps

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zan Tabak
At the time, everyone and their mother thought JO was a good acquisition. The Raps seemed to lack interior toughness and Rebounding (which they still do) and it looked as if a player like JO would give them what they needed.

But what really happened is JO and Bosh didn't really gel nice together and the way Bargs can stretch out defenses(giving Bosh more room to operate) made the team more competitive without Jermaine. Tough to have that kind of foresight, cause the Raps looked as if they were in need of a player like that.
Actually, JO was having a good season before he went out. Getting tough rebounds, blocking shots, demonstrating a low post game, stepping in for charges, everything that was asked/expected of him, he did it. The problem was/is that no matter how well our big play, our wings are gonna be outplayed on almost a nightly basis. We have a poorly constructed team basically.
bokes15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2009, 11:28 AM   #10
jrcp3
GuardsWinChampionships
 
jrcp3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: City of God
Posts: 1,192
jrcp3 has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: 5000th post, and my thoughts on the current state of the Raps

How about JO plays Back-up Power Forward to Chris Bosh ......

and we sign a Decent Center? IF WE KEPT RASHO!!!!!!!!!!!

Starting PF - C

C - Andrea Bargnani
PF - Chris Bosh

Bench PF - C

C - Rasho or Sign/Trade for a decent center
PF - Jeremaine O'Neil


Our front court would be nice even with our bench!
jrcp3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2009, 11:36 AM   #11
Valliant13
NBA lottery pick
 
Valliant13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,023
Valliant13 is considered somewhat coolValliant13 is considered somewhat coolValliant13 is considered somewhat cool
Default Re: 5000th post, and my thoughts on the current state of the Raps

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrcp3
How about JO plays Back-up Power Forward to Chris Bosh ......

and we sign a Decent Center? IF WE KEPT RASHO!!!!!!!!!!!

Starting PF - C

C - Andrea Bargnani
PF - Chris Bosh

Bench PF - C

C - Rasho or Sign/Trade for a decent center
PF - Jeremaine O'Neil


Our front court would be nice even with our bench!

You really think JO would come off the bench and play hard, without complaint? JO either needs to start, or be traded: anything is chemistry nightmare. And that is not really a knock on JO: 90% of the former All Stars in the leauge would react the same way.
Valliant13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2009, 11:45 AM   #12
jrcp3
GuardsWinChampionships
 
jrcp3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: City of God
Posts: 1,192
jrcp3 has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: 5000th post, and my thoughts on the current state of the Raps

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valliant13
You really think JO would come off the bench and play hard, without complaint? JO either needs to start, or be traded: anything is chemistry nightmare. And that is not really a knock on JO: 90% of the former All Stars in the leauge would react the same way.

Well, he can't start because Bargnani is playing great ..... Colangelo will be in a huge hole because he know that Bargnani was going to be a very good player so why would he get a next player who plays the same position as him ( PF is for Chris Bosh )

Can Colangelo say that he didn't believe in Bargnani at the end of the season last year?

He must because why would he of traded for O'Neil who plays Bargnani Position naw mean?
jrcp3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2009, 11:48 AM   #13
bokes15
Playoffs!
 
bokes15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: New York City
Posts: 9,272
bokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterbokes15 is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster
Default Re: 5000th post, and my thoughts on the current state of the Raps

Quote:
Can Colangelo say that he didn't believe in Bargnani at the end of the season last year?

He must because why would he of traded for O'Neil who plays Bargnani Position naw mean?
If he didn't believe in Bargnani, he woud've traded him. I remember we were getting offers/interest from NJ, NY and some other teams for him last year when he wasn't playing well. If anything, getting JO probably bought Bargnani some time and gave Toronto a new scapegoat if things weren't going well.
bokes15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2009, 11:50 AM   #14
jrcp3
GuardsWinChampionships
 
jrcp3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: City of God
Posts: 1,192
jrcp3 has an OK reputation so far
Default Re: 5000th post, and my thoughts on the current state of the Raps

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
If he didn't believe in Bargnani, he woud've traded him. I remember we were getting offers/interest from NJ, NY and some other teams for him last year when he wasn't playing well. If anything, getting JO probably bought Bargnani some time and gave Toronto a new scapegoat if things weren't going well.

yea jack said getting O'neil made Bargnani realize that if he doesn't step his game up he would be sitting on the bench like earlier in the season ...... which makes sense!
jrcp3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2009, 01:34 PM   #15
Qwyjibo
Yankee.Hotel.Foxtrot
 
Qwyjibo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 12,399
Qwyjibo is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterQwyjibo is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterQwyjibo is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterQwyjibo is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterQwyjibo is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterQwyjibo is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterQwyjibo is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterQwyjibo is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterQwyjibo is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterQwyjibo is considered a brilliant InsideHoops posterQwyjibo is considered a brilliant InsideHoops poster
Default Re: 5000th post, and my thoughts on the current state of the Raps

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrcp3
yea jack said getting O'neil made Bargnani realize that if he doesn't step his game up he would be sitting on the bench like earlier in the season ...... which makes sense!
So the Raptors traded Ford, Rasho and a 1st for the sole reason of giving Bargnani a "kick in the butt"? If that was true then I guess Colangelo will do anything to cater to Bargnani's success rather than the RAPTORS' success.

Why do that trade unless you think Bargnani can't play C and you need a good defender in the middle? Colangelo has been flip-flopping about the direction he is taking this team ever since he came to Toronto.

The O'Neal trade was a waste of assets now that the Raptors seem to be firmly set with Bargnani at C. Wouldn't it have been smarter to get at least one long-term piece to put around Bosh, Calderon and Bargnani for those 3 assets? Apparently not. O'Neal is now nothing more than a stop-gap player for Toronto, the 08/09 and 09/10 seasons will now be throwaway years and who knows what the plan for this team is at this point.
Qwyjibo is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:38 PM.




NBA Basketball Forum Key Links:
InsideHoops Home
NBA Rumors
Basketball Blog
NBA Daily Recaps
NBA Videos
Fantasy Basketball
NBA Mock Draft
NBA Free Agents
All-Star Weekend
---
High School Basketball
Streetball
---
InsideHoops Twitter
Search Our Site













Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy