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Old 02-18-2009, 09:31 PM   #91
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Default Re: Bulls get B.Miller J.Salmons. Kings get A.Nocioni, D.Gooden, M.Ruffin, C.Simmons

strooooong move for the Bulls. good in the short term with those aquisitions, and good in the long term with all the cap space they're going to have coming to them.
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Old 02-18-2009, 09:42 PM   #92
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Default Re: Bulls get B.Miller J.Salmons. Kings get A.Nocioni, D.Gooden, M.Ruffin, C.Simmons

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Originally Posted by Biddy77
strooooong move for the Bulls. good in the short term with those aquisitions, and good in the long term with all the cap space they're going to have coming to them.

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Old 02-18-2009, 09:51 PM   #93
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Default Re: Bulls get B.Miller J.Salmons. Kings get A.Nocioni, D.Gooden, M.Ruffin, C.Simmons

Chicago Bulls

Projected 8-man rotation (with salary and years left)

PG: Derrick Rose (5 mil, 2 years)
SG: Ben Gordon (6.5 mil, 1 year)
SF: Luol Deng (9.5 mil, 6 years)
PF: Tyrus Thomas (3.5 mil, 2 years)
C: Brad Miller (11.5 mil, 2 years)

G Kirk Hinrich (10 mil, 4 years), G/F John Salmons (6 mil, 3 years), C Joakim Noah (2 mil, 2 years)

Notable: Larry Hughes (12.5 mil, 2 years)

I'm assuming Gordon starts, considering Salmons new to the system.

Short-term impact

Chicago gets a solid interior big man that can score, rebound, and pass. While Gooden's on the same level as a player, Miller's also 3 inches taller and fills a bigger need at center than Gooden at forward. This won't make a huge impact on the Bulls, but it makes them stronger in their weakest area. They're adequate inside now.

Salmons is versatile and scores well. At 6'7" he provides a lot more size than Gordon in the backcourt, which should help out on defense. He can play with Gordon and a point as a 3, or at the 2 with Deng at the 3 and Rose/Hinrich at point. Larry Hughes hasn't panned out, so Salmons fills a need here on the perimeter.

I don't see this trade having a big effect right now; Miller/Salmons isn't a huge upgrade over Nocioni and Gooden, though both are definitely better fits for Chicago. They could win a few more games with these two guys, but they're getting more out of the deal long-term.

Long-term impact

Luol Deng (6), John Salmons (3), and Kirk Hinrich (4) are now the only players on the Bulls whose contracts extend past two years (unlesss some young guys have options, which I expect they do), which adds up to about $25 million combined, around $30 mil if you add some options. I believe that puts them about $30 million under the cap, if the cap's going to be around 60 mil in 2010.

If this is the case, Chicago will have the opportunity to get a high-profile free agent in the summer of 2010 along with bringing back Thomas/Noah (if their contracts run out by 2010, they'll need to be re-signed; if not, they can have their options excercized for a few mil apiece). Getting a superstar next to Rose is important, and Chicago has a good shot of doing so.

The Bulls have two things that will work for them in free agency: a talented young core of players, and a strong history that will be sure to attract FA's over other market players like, say, the Kings (just using them as an example; don't know if they'll have the room but I assume they will). Most big time players aren't going to go to a team like Sacramento or Memphis, so Chicago's got that going for them with the whole 90s dynasty. Other teams like New York and New Jersey won't have a talented nucleus in place like the Bulls will with Rose, Deng, maybe Hinrich and Thomas if they stick, count Noah as a solid role player.

Overall

The Bulls have accomplished a tough thing: improving their team in the short term, while also being able to contend in free agency in the long-term. Good deal for them.

* I think they should work on trading Hinrich for some extra cap room, maybe a pick? That'd make it easier for free agency in 2010, assuring them they could bring back Thomas and Noah and still sign a top-tier free agent. Collins/Cardinal from Minny is a rumor I heard earlier.

Sacramento Kings

Projected 8-man rotation

PG: Beno Udrih (5.5 mil, 4 years)
SG: Kevin Martin (9 mil, 5 years)
SF: Francisco Garcia (2 mil, 5 years)
PF: Jason Thompson (2 mil, 2 years)
C: Spencer Hawes (2 mil, 2 years)

F Drew Gooden (7 mil, 1 year), F/C Mikki Moore (5.5 mil, 2 years), G Bobby Jackson (6.5 mil, 1 year)

Notable: F Kenny Thomas (8.5 mil, 2 years)

Short-term impact

The Kings take a small step back in the short term. John Salmons is a reliable 18 PPG scorer on the perimeter, and Brad Miller's good for around 10/10. Nocioni's a proven veteran scorer at forward, but not of Salmons's caliber. Gooden's a solid power forward, and could probably make an impact comparable to Miller. I think they stay the same, maybe lose a couple extra games.

Long-term impact

Someone earlier compared the acquisition of Nocioni to that of Kenny Thomas, and I agree. Noch is more useful than Thomas, but 5 years is a long contract for a role player. This gives them less flexibility via trade/free agency. They could have kept Salmons, who does more than Andres and only had 3 years left, and a valuable 6 mil.

Brad Miller didn't fit with the Kings' current direction, but I think they could've found a better trade offer. If they couldn't, they'd have his expiring contract next year, which would be extremely valuable. Gooden's a solid replacement, but he's likely only going to be around for the remainder of the season. Maybe they re-sign him in the offseason for a low price as a solid backup.

Not a bright future for the Kings. A lot of their young guys get significant playing time, but they have very little talent/starpower on the team. Maybe if they could somehow land a great big man (Blake Griffin in the draft; though it would be redundant getting all of these bigs in the lottery, he'd be a great complement to Martin) things could work out, otherwise I see this team being filled with a bunch of good role players, led by a guy I think should be a #2 option for a championship-contending team in Martin.

A touch on free agency: No one big's going to want to come to Sacramento. They'll have to build the team the hard way, via good trades and solid drafting.

Overall

They would've been better off keeping what they had and not going through with the trade. However, get a star down low, and the Kings have a shot at climbing back near the top of the Western Conference; don't, and they'll just be an average team for the next few years and start all over.
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Old 02-18-2009, 10:57 PM   #94
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Default Re: Bulls get B.Miller J.Salmons. Kings get A.Nocioni, D.Gooden, M.Ruffin, C.Simmons

The Bulls still need a star big man to pair with D-Rose. Maybe Boozer, maybe a 2010 FA. They still need to trade Hinrich, dump Hughes, and try to explain to Ben Gordon that he is best suited as a 6th man... with them. But they finally have an actual starting center, and Salmons is a legit scorer. Plus they get rid of Noc who they don't need.

As for the Kings, dag, why give up Salmons in a deal to move Miller? Dude was an absolute bargain, 17ppg. And no pick coming back in this deal? Man, they probably could have gotten a better deal from the Knicks or whoever else for Miller, maybe gotten Curry and whipped him back into a 20 ppg guy.

I guess they could commit to Noc as their starting SF, let Gooden expire and move on. It's nice they managed to trade Ruffin immediately for a somewhat more promising player in Diogu (why do the Blazers want Ruffi?). But again, the Kings should have been getting a first rounder back here.
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Old 02-18-2009, 10:59 PM   #95
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Default Re: Aldridge: Bulls to land Salmons, Miller for Nocioni, Gooden

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Originally Posted by Jasper
who are you kidding ???
prior to the season when people were picking places for the end of the season , the Bulls were placed any where's from 4th seed to no lower than 7th.

Bulls were and still are grossly overrated.

Overrated how? Have you seen what the fans have been posting on the Bulls forum? No one is overrating this team at all.
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Old 02-18-2009, 11:04 PM   #96
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Default Re: Bulls get B.Miller J.Salmons. Kings get A.Nocioni, D.Gooden, M.Ruffin, C.Simmons

Brad Miller might not be a good defensive player but it sure is better than gooden. Plus he's a good passing center while Gooden doesn't pass at all. Salmons is better than noce and has a better contract. This certainly improves the team atleast on paper.

Long term, it gives chicago some additional cap space. Or they use Miller and Hughes as trade baits next season. Another option is to resign Brad Miller after 2010 if he's willing to sign a short cheap contract. Salmons gives insurance in case Kirk is traded and/or gordon signs elsewhere.

I was actually expecting chicago to take on Kenny Thomas contract in order to get rid of Noce. Good trade pax

Last edited by trig : 02-18-2009 at 11:06 PM.
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Old 02-19-2009, 01:51 AM   #97
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Default Re: Bulls get B.Miller J.Salmons. Kings get A.Nocioni, D.Gooden, M.Ruffin, C.Simmons

What happened to Noce? That guys was a good solid hustle player. I loved to watch him play under Skiles. But recently he's kinda fallen apart. Was it just the big contract or something else too?
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Old 02-19-2009, 02:29 AM   #98
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Default Re: Bulls get B.Miller J.Salmons. Kings get A.Nocioni, D.Gooden, M.Ruffin, C.Simmons

This trade is a complete slap in the face for King's fans. Not only did ownership worsen the team this season, but somehow, the long-term contractual implications are worse.

Does anyone realize that Andres Nocioni, all 10 PPG and 40% shooting of him, is signed on through 2012? It's a descending contract, but you're paying him at least 6 Million dollars for 3 seasons AFTER this one. So you lose Salmons, who is a much better and more efficient scorer, who also has a shorter contract at less money, for this guy?

For what? to unload Brad Miller's money off the cap, in exchange for Drew Gooden's expiring contract. I understand that the salary cap will decrease next season, but in a blatant salary dump, the Kings also managed to cripple their future, just so the owner doesn't lose money. This should be where the NBA starts drawing the line.

If these billionairre owners want to make money, go invest in something else. To sabotage a teams future to salvage your wallet is complete bull, plain and simple. The people of Sacramento should be rioting in the streets.

Sad thing is, we're going to see more and more of these types of deals, thanks to the worsening economy. This is just the beginning.
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Old 02-19-2009, 03:24 AM   #99
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Default Re: Bulls get B.Miller J.Salmons. Kings get A.Nocioni, D.Gooden, M.Ruffin, C.Simmons

This is good first step forward for Bulls. Two more years and help is on the way to Chicago for post-player much needed.
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Old 02-19-2009, 09:12 AM   #100
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Default Re: Bulls get B.Miller J.Salmons. Kings get A.Nocioni, D.Gooden, M.Ruffin, C.Simmons

Quote:
Originally Posted by puppychili
What happened to Noce? That guys was a good solid hustle player. I loved to watch him play under Skiles. But recently he's kinda fallen apart. Was it just the big contract or something else too?

i think all the argentinian players are like 3 years older than their listed age. i'm not kidding. that's why they all play like old men.
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Old 02-19-2009, 01:15 PM   #101
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Default Re: Bulls get B.Miller J.Salmons. Kings get A.Nocioni, D.Gooden, M.Ruffin, C.Simmons

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe
This trade is a complete slap in the face for King's fans. Not only did ownership worsen the team this season, but somehow, the long-term contractual implications are worse.

Does anyone realize that Andres Nocioni, all 10 PPG and 40% shooting of him, is signed on through 2012? It's a descending contract, but you're paying him at least 6 Million dollars for 3 seasons AFTER this one. So you lose Salmons, who is a much better and more efficient scorer, who also has a shorter contract at less money, for this guy?

For what? to unload Brad Miller's money off the cap, in exchange for Drew Gooden's expiring contract. I understand that the salary cap will decrease next season, but in a blatant salary dump, the Kings also managed to cripple their future, just so the owner doesn't lose money. This should be where the NBA starts drawing the line.

If these billionairre owners want to make money, go invest in something else. To sabotage a teams future to salvage your wallet is complete bull, plain and simple. The people of Sacramento should be rioting in the streets.

Sad thing is, we're going to see more and more of these types of deals, thanks to the worsening economy. This is just the beginning.
Agree. It doesn't make sense to me because Miller was going to enter his expiring year next season, so he certainly could be moved during that time, and if not, then he would be off the books anyway. They made this deal just for one year of his salary, and in the process hurt them in the long run since John was a better player than Noc, and had a cheaper, shorter deal. Kings made the wrong choice for both the financial situation, and a talent/future success situation.
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Old 02-19-2009, 01:27 PM   #102
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Default Re: Bulls get B.Miller J.Salmons. Kings get A.Nocioni, D.Gooden, M.Ruffin, C.Simmons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Showtime
Agree. It doesn't make sense to me because Miller was going to enter his expiring year next season, so he certainly could be moved during that time, and if not, then he would be off the books anyway. They made this deal just for one year of his salary, and in the process hurt them in the long run since John was a better player than Noc, and had a cheaper, shorter deal. Kings made the wrong choice for both the financial situation, and a talent/future success situation.

Ya, the thing is, if you have Miller on your team next season his contract counts towards your cap, and the Kings don't want to pay the luxury tax. They were probably first looking to just move Miller for an expirer, but couldn't find that kind of deal, so had to give up a young player to sweeten the pot.

But this move is absolutely dispicable. If they had made this trade to the Cavaliers, or some other contender, ESPN would be having a heart attack right now. Since it was just to the lowly Bulls, no one notices. But the Kings owner really gave a big "Eff You" to their fans with this one.
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Old 02-19-2009, 05:10 PM   #103
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Default Good for both teams

Noc is younger then Salmons and over his career has been a better player then Salmons. Noc never really got a chance with the Bulls, because the Bulls were so heavily invested in Deng, but Noc can play. When Noc was a starter he averaged better numbers then Salmons (about the same PPG, but w/more rebounds).

Subjectively I think Noc is actually a better player then Salmons, Noc has much better form on his jumpshot (believe me this matters), and more moves offensively. Neither Noc or Salmons are great athletes but Noc is stronger, and has better leaping ability (something that matters for a Forward). Salmons is a better fit for the Bulls because he is more versatile, and a more stable player, but Noc is overall the better player.

Brad Miller is a better fit on the Bulls (who need a scoring center), then Drew Gooden (a jumpshooting powerforward). What the bulls lacked was a big gaurd, and a legit bigman. They filled both of those needs.
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Old 02-19-2009, 05:50 PM   #104
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Default Re: Good for both teams

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBigAristotle1
Noc is younger then Salmons and over his career has been a better player then Salmons.

They are very close in age, and John > Noc on both ends of the court.

Quote:
Noc never really got a chance with the Bulls, because the Bulls were so heavily invested in Deng, but Noc can play. When Noc was a starter he averaged better numbers then Salmons (about the same PPG, but w/more rebounds).

And John wasn't successful in Philly with AI, and became a 20/5/5 level player with the Kings when starting, while shooting a better FG%, hovering around 50% FG and 40% from 3.

Quote:
Subjectively I think Noc is actually a better player then Salmons, Noc has much better form on his jumpshot (believe me this matters), and more moves offensively. Neither Noc or Salmons are great athletes but Noc is stronger, and has better leaping ability (something that matters for a Forward). Salmons is a better fit for the Bulls because he is more versatile, and a more stable player, but Noc is overall the better player.

From what I've seen of both players, the only think Noc has over John is dunking ability.
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Old 02-20-2009, 04:17 PM   #105
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Default Re: Good for both teams

Showtime,

This year no question Salmons has been better, over their carreers I think Noc is the better player, definitely on offense. Salmons is an excellent player, I'm happy to have him on the Bulls, I think Kings fans are underestimating Nocioni because he is having a bad year.

Quote:
And John wasn't successful in Philly with AI, and became a 20/5/5 level player with the Kings when starting, while shooting a better FG%, hovering around 50% FG and 40% from 3.

Salmons is playing like a beast this year, no question. I prefer to judge players by their carreers not by how they are doing right now.
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