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Old 02-22-2009, 05:26 PM   #16
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Default Re: Marion Already "Pissed Off"

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Originally Posted by jrcp3
Walker would be the solution for a decent wing player who can create, he use to be a great player couple of years ago he just hasn't seem to find a good team to be on but other than that if we can get him for cheap it would be alright ..... it's better to have good players on the bench rather than a bunch of scrubs like we have on our bench ....

It was an option before the trade deadline where we could manage our cap situation. I don't think it will happen because it's pointless to pay luxury tax on a guy who probably wouldn't play anyways. Especially in a season that means absolutely nothing. I think it was either signing Walker or Pops or do the O'Bryant trade. I think we all know what happened.
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Old 02-22-2009, 06:22 PM   #17
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Default Re: Marion Already "Pissed Off"

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Originally Posted by Toni
It was an option before the trade deadline where we could manage our cap situation. I don't think it will happen because it's pointless to pay luxury tax on a guy who probably wouldn't play anyways. Especially in a season that means absolutely nothing. I think it was either signing Walker or Pops or do the O'Bryant trade. I think we all know what happened.

Yea if we were contending for a high seed in the playoffs, right now i think we just need to get rid of the players who aren't in our future .... mainly Jason Kapono im kind of surprised we couldn't get anything for him at the trade deadline considering a contender who love to have a 3 point shooter for the playoffs even tho his contract is nasty.
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Old 02-22-2009, 07:32 PM   #18
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Default Re: Marion Already "Pissed Off"

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I said he 'seems' better. Meaning he drives and cuts consistently and looks wickid on our team because not one player knows how to do that for some reason. He looks a lot more solid putting up 15/15 numbers and driving consistently than Bosh throwing up jumpers all game when he's our starting PF.
Even a prime Marion wasn't better than Bosh. Bosh was putting up monster numbers at the beginning of the season but he wasn't getting any help. So you guys have expected him to carry your team for the first 3 quarters and then have the energy to kick it up an extra gear in the 4th. It's utterly ridiculous. I think that at a certain point he was making an effort to take it to the rim consistently but he takes a pounding more-so than any other Raptor player because of how good he is. Teams make an effort to double him and get a body on him which opens up the floor for other teammates to operate. The guy is 5th in the league in FTM and 6th in FTA. What more do you really want from him. For him to be Dwight Howard? Because that's never going to happen. But, we'll take him on PHX in 2010 if you don't want him.
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Old 02-22-2009, 08:39 PM   #19
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Default Re: Marion Already "Pissed Off"

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Even a prime Marion wasn't better than Bosh. Bosh was putting up monster numbers at the beginning of the season but he wasn't getting any help. So you guys have expected him to carry your team for the first 3 quarters and then have the energy to kick it up an extra gear in the 4th. It's utterly ridiculous. I think that at a certain point he was making an effort to take it to the rim consistently but he takes a pounding more-so than any other Raptor player because of how good he is. Teams make an effort to double him and get a body on him which opens up the floor for other teammates to operate. The guy is 5th in the league in FTM and 6th in FTA. What more do you really want from him. For him to be Dwight Howard? Because that's never going to happen. But, we'll take him on PHX in 2010 if you don't want him.

kk deal we'll take Amare. Thanks.
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Old 02-22-2009, 08:49 PM   #20
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Default Re: Marion Already "Pissed Off"

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Originally Posted by haterofhaters
Even a prime Marion wasn't better than Bosh. Bosh was putting up monster numbers at the beginning of the season but he wasn't getting any help. So you guys have expected him to carry your team for the first 3 quarters and then have the energy to kick it up an extra gear in the 4th. It's utterly ridiculous. I think that at a certain point he was making an effort to take it to the rim consistently but he takes a pounding more-so than any other Raptor player because of how good he is. Teams make an effort to double him and get a body on him which opens up the floor for other teammates to operate. The guy is 5th in the league in FTM and 6th in FTA. What more do you really want from him. For him to be Dwight Howard? Because that's never going to happen. But, we'll take him on PHX in 2010 if you don't want him.
Simply put what we want is for a player demanding max salary to be on par with the same players that demand those numbers, mainly: Kobe, Lebron or Wade. Is that unreasonable? If I go into work and demand to be paid the same as people at my company that perform better than me and threaten to leave if I don't get that money, I'd flat out be fired. The NBA should be no different.
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Old 02-22-2009, 09:03 PM   #21
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Default Re: Marion Already "Pissed Off"

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Originally Posted by DJMason
Simply put what we want is for a player demanding max salary to be on par with the same players that demand those numbers, mainly: Kobe, Lebron or Wade. Is that unreasonable? If I go into work and demand to be paid the same as people at my company that perform better than me and threaten to leave if I don't get that money, I'd flat out be fired. The NBA should be no different.
That logic is severely flawed. Going by that, there's probably only about 4-5 players in the entire league that should be receiving a max contract. We can debate all day about what is "deserved" but that's not how the league works. So basically, instead of having Bosh, you want a team with nobody even close to being on a superstar level because you think you'd be better off? How many teams have won without a true go-to guy. Do you think that a guy like Andrea Bargnani would be better as a #1 option when he starts seeing those doubles that Bosh commands? Is he good at facilitating? Is he a good rebounder? A good defender? I know he has a nice play (defensively) here or there, but from what i've seen, there's no consistency. Building a team around a player like Bargnani is asking for playoff failure.

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Old 02-22-2009, 09:09 PM   #22
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Default Re: Marion Already "Pissed Off"

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Originally Posted by haterofhaters
That logic is severely flawed. Going by that, there's probably only about 4-5 players in the entire league that should be receiving a max contract. We can debate all day about what is "deserved" but that's not how the league works. So basically, instead of having Bosh, you want a team with nobody even close to being on a superstar level because you think you'd be better off? How many teams have won without a true go-to guy. Do you think that a guy like Andrea Bargnani would be better as a #1 option when he starts seeing those doubles that Bosh commands? Is he good at facilitating? Is he a good rebounder? A good defender? I know he has a nice play (defensively) here or there, but from what i've seen, there's no consistency. Building a team around a player like Bargnani is asking for playoff failure.

We're not saying Bargnani is better than Bosh so stop assuming that. We're saying that yes Bosh is a great player, but not a franchise player like Paul, Kobe, Lebron, Wade or Howard. And no, he is not a facilitator and does not make players around him better. He is not deserving of 20 million dollars per year, maybe 15 million. Bargnani will probably only command 10 million or so to re-sign and he actually wants to play and stay in Toronto unlike Bosh. So looking at it from a financial perspective, we could probably trade Bosh and get some really nice young players for our team and re-sign Bargnani instead. Yeah, we would love to keep Bosh here, but that's the business sometimes and tough decisions need to be made. If you think Bosh is worth 20 million dollars when the cap is 60 million (1/3 of total team salary), than you are sadly mistaken my friend. We wouldn't even have first round exits, we won't even be in the playoffs because of our lack of depth.
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Old 02-22-2009, 09:17 PM   #23
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Default Re: Marion Already "Pissed Off"

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Originally Posted by Toni
We're not saying Bargnani is better than Bosh so stop assuming that. We're saying that yes Bosh is a great player, but not a franchise player like Paul, Kobe, Lebron, Wade or Howard. And no, he is not a facilitator and does not make players around him better. He is not deserving of 20 million dollars per year, maybe 15 million. Bargnani will probably only command 10 million or so to re-sign and he actually wants to play and stay in Toronto unlike Bosh. So looking at it from a financial perspective, we could probably trade Bosh and get some really nice young players for our team and re-sign Bargnani instead. Yeah, we would love to keep Bosh here, but that's the business sometimes and tough decisions need to be made. If you think Bosh is worth 20 million dollars when the cap is 60 million (1/3 of total team salary), than you are sadly mistaken my friend. We wouldn't even have first round exits, we won't even be in the playoffs because of our lack of depth.
Is this the same guy who said Marion is better than Bosh? Yeah.. so I think saying "we" would be insulting to other raptors posters. I was addressing DJ Mason.

Do you have any idea how the salary cap works? There's a thing called "Bird Right's" (look it up) which would mean that the Raptors would be allowed to exceed the salary cap to re-sign Bosh even if they had to pay money to other players. They would be able to offer him the most money, the longest contract, and they would still be able to sign other players to help them make a playoff push as long as that was the main concern rather than penny pinching. If you get rid of Bosh, you won't get anything close to equal value for him, and it could be 10-15 years before you find another player of his calibur, let alone one who's willing to play in Toronto.
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Old 02-22-2009, 10:18 PM   #24
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Default Re: Marion Already "Pissed Off"

^^ don't even waste your time. Half the time he posts about how Bosh is so much better than Bargnani and how we need to trade Bargnani, and the other half he talks about how we need to ship out Bosh.. His opinion changes depending on who's online for that given day.. so you might as well focus on discussion with someone who has a solid opinion one way or the other.
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Old 02-22-2009, 10:52 PM   #25
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Default Re: Marion Already "Pissed Off"

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He just recently said in a CBC interview that he wants to retire a Raptor.
I watched the CBC interview, and he said that Steve Nash may want to retire a Raptor. Marion didn't say anything about himself retiring a Raptor.
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Old 02-22-2009, 11:09 PM   #26
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Default Re: Marion Already "Pissed Off"

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Originally Posted by bokes15
^^ don't even waste your time. Half the time he posts about how Bosh is so much better than Bargnani and how we need to trade Bargnani, and the other half he talks about how we need to ship out Bosh.. His opinion changes depending on who's online for that given day.. so you might as well focus on discussion with someone who has a solid opinion one way or the other.

Wow.. this is ridiculous. Do you even read my posts? Sometimes it feels like I'm wasting my time. I never said Bargnani is better than Bosh are you kidding me? I just said from a financial point of view it would be easier to keep Bargnani instead. Yes there is Bird rights, but it will still take us over the cap and limit our flexibiltiy regardless of luxury tax. We will still have 2 soft low post players and we will still be a bad team. Like I said, 1 of the 2 have to go and it would be better for the team in a financial perspective to keep Bargnani instead of Bosh. We could get more for Bosh than Bargnani in the trade market and Bosh is obviously not happy here anyways. Please read my posts and stop putting words in my mouth Bokes. But I should have known you would have had a fit right when someone says Bosh might not be in the best interests of this franchise in the long-term, since you think he is a 'franchise player' and will carry this team to greater heights. Come back down to reality please.
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Old 02-23-2009, 12:10 AM   #27
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Default Re: Marion Already "Pissed Off"

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. I never said Bargnani is better than Bosh are you kidding me?
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and the other half he talks about how we need to ship out Bosh..
learn to read and maybe you'd have a point. It doesn't say that you said Bargnani is better. It says that you believe Bosh needs to be the one to go, and other times you say Bargnani is the one to go. Your opinion flip flops on pretty much a daily basis. At least with b4ball and some others, even though I disagree with them, I know what their opinion is and it doesn't change every 5 minutes.

Last edited by bokes15 : 02-23-2009 at 12:12 AM.
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Old 02-23-2009, 12:25 AM   #28
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Default Re: Marion Already "Pissed Off"

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Yes there is Bird rights, but it will still take us over the cap and limit our flexibiltiy regardless of luxury tax.
I'm guessing this one sentence was supposed to somehow be a response to my post. I think you completely missed the point. I would think that the goal of the Toronto Raptors in 2010 would be to create a "win-now" team. Not necessarily a team that will immediately win a championship, but one that will at least be in position to be a top 4 team in the EC. The financial flexibility would mainly matter if you were in a rebuilding mode. That's what cap room is used for in case you didn't already know. The teams that suck have it, and the teams that win don't. Why do you think the Celtics readily sacrificed Al Jefferson + cap room for KG? To win. Winning is the goal, not acquiring cap room. The only logic I can find behind keeping Bargnani and trading Bosh is if you were thinking very long term, as in 7-8 years down the line and hoping for a significant improvement from him. Other than that, if this team wants to remain competitive, Bosh would be the answer. Get that man some legit scoring help on the wings and a center who can rebound/defend and you'd see a world of difference.
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Old 02-23-2009, 01:05 AM   #29
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Default Re: Marion Already "Pissed Off"

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I'm guessing this one sentence was supposed to somehow be a response to my post. I think you completely missed the point. I would think that the goal of the Toronto Raptors in 2010 would be to create a "win-now" team. Not necessarily a team that will immediately win a championship, but one that will at least be in position to be a top 4 team in the EC. The financial flexibility would mainly matter if you were in a rebuilding mode. That's what cap room is used for in case you didn't already know. The teams that suck have it, and the teams that win don't. Why do you think the Celtics readily sacrificed Al Jefferson + cap room for KG? To win. Winning is the goal, not acquiring cap room. The only logic I can find behind keeping Bargnani and trading Bosh is if you were thinking very long term, as in 7-8 years down the line and hoping for a significant improvement from him. Other than that, if this team wants to remain competitive, Bosh would be the answer. Get that man some legit scoring help on the wings and a center who can rebound/defend and you'd see a world of difference.

Well I won't argue with you about that, I actually agree with everything you said. Obviously as a fan I want the team to be competitive, but I really don't think they can be competitive with a Bosh/Bargnani frontcourt. They are both talented players but they both play the game the same way and we need to get a defensive presence in the paint that doesn't make over 20 million a year and is injury prone. One of the two has to go, if it's Bargnani than so be it. Bird rights or not I'm still not up for giving Bosh 20 million a year, I really don't think he is worth that much money. As a fan it's frustrating to think that our star player will command more money to stay in a particular situation that he doesn't want to be in. Overpaying for Bosh's services will not be the answer for us to be a "win now" team. The difference with Boston is that when they acquired KG they had 2 hall of famer, veteran all-stars in Pierce and Allen. We have Calderon and Bargnani with Bosh, our supposed KG.

But seriously, this team is not a top-4 team. Some serious changes need to be made. I think my claims have been rather consistent unlike whatever Bokes likes to think, he is entitled to his opinions. In a nutshell I'm stating this;

1) We won't win anything with a Bosh/Bargnani frontcourt.
2) 1/2 needs to be shipped out.
3) We need to acquire a defensive minded post-player to play with either Bosh/Bargnani.
4) I am opposed to overpaying Bosh if he doesn't want to be here.
5) Bargnani would be a lot cheaper to re-sign and allow us to have more flexibility regarding cap space. (Even though Bosh is the better player, I don't think he is 10 million better than Bargnani is).
6) Bosh would have a much higher trade value than Bargnani and we could get much better and younger players for him than Andrea.
5) We need a younger and more athletic upgrade at the SG spot.

Take note Bokes, this is what I'm saying. I don't know why you think I have mixed opinions about everything. But this is it. Take it or leave it bro.
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Old 02-23-2009, 01:22 AM   #30
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Default Re: Marion Already "Pissed Off"

My argument with you (Toni) wasn't regarding whether one needs to go or not. The argument was over which one needs to go. And I didn't say you currently have a top 4 team (obviously), I said that the goal should be to create a top 4 team (through draft picks, trades, and/or free agency)that will compete at a high level, rather than to trade Bosh and have a team that will be moderately competitive for the next several years but won't be making any significant noise. Franchise players don't come along everyday, and when they do, you would seriously regret letting go of that player. Very rarely does a current franchise player/all-star (whether you consider him to be one or not) get traded for player(s) that immediately make the team better. When a player like Chris Bosh gets traded, it's more often than not because the team is not focused on winning now, but rather it's focus is on winning later/eventually and rebuilding. I guess if that's what you guys are aiming for, then there's nothing really left to discuss.
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