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Old 02-23-2009, 01:57 AM   #31
Toni
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Default Re: Marion Already "Pissed Off"

Quote:
Originally Posted by haterofhaters
My argument with you (Toni) wasn't regarding whether one needs to go or not. The argument was over which one needs to go. And I didn't say you currently have a top 4 team (obviously), I said that the goal should be to create a top 4 team (through draft picks, trades, and/or free agency)that will compete at a high level, rather than to trade Bosh and have a team that will be moderately competitive for the next several years but won't be making any significant noise. Franchise players don't come along everyday, and when they do, you would seriously regret letting go of that player. Very rarely does a current franchise player/all-star (whether you consider him to be one or not) get traded for player(s) that immediately make the team better. When a player like Chris Bosh gets traded, it's more often than not because the team is not focused on winning now, but rather it's focus is on winning later/eventually and rebuilding. I guess if that's what you guys are aiming for, then there's nothing really left to discuss.

Alright well I'm not going to really argue with what your saying because your 100% right. Guys like Chris Bosh don't come around often. But I really don't think he is deserving of the 'franchise player' tag just yet (Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Howard, Duncan, Paul). I also don't think he wants to be in Toronto, judging by his disinterest in games lately and basically just the look on his face during games. I don't want to have to overpay for our 'franchise' player to stay here so he can go through the motions and collect the paycheck. I haven't been impressed with Bosh's play from when Sam Mitchell was fired on. He has lacked heart and any kind of intensity. Although if Bosh is willing to sign an extension this summer at a reasonable price (15M p/S) than great for the Raptors. He's committed and in it for the long haul. I just really don't think he will do that and will probably leave after next year anyways to go team up with D12. Whereas Bargnani seems like he enjoys playing for the Raptors and will make probably half of what Bosh makes which will help with the team's financial flexibility. I still believe in all my previous points of Bosh and Bargnani in that one of them needs to go and be replaced by a defensive post presence. Otherwise we will never be that 'top 4' team you speak of in the future. Whether it's Bosh or Bargnani that leaves, it doesn't really matter. But we will never be competitive with both.
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Old 02-23-2009, 02:00 AM   #32
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Default Re: Marion Already "Pissed Off"

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Originally Posted by bokes15
learn to read and maybe you'd have a point. It doesn't say that you said Bargnani is better. It says that you believe Bosh needs to be the one to go, and other times you say Bargnani is the one to go. Your opinion flip flops on pretty much a daily basis. At least with b4ball and some others, even though I disagree with them, I know what their opinion is and it doesn't change every 5 minutes.

My bad Bokes. One or the other needs to go. Make sense?
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Old 02-23-2009, 12:44 PM   #33
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Default Re: Marion Already "Pissed Off"

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Originally Posted by haterofhaters
My argument with you (Toni) wasn't regarding whether one needs to go or not. The argument was over which one needs to go. And I didn't say you currently have a top 4 team (obviously), I said that the goal should be to create a top 4 team (through draft picks, trades, and/or free agency)that will compete at a high level, rather than to trade Bosh and have a team that will be moderately competitive for the next several years but won't be making any significant noise. Franchise players don't come along everyday, and when they do, you would seriously regret letting go of that player. Very rarely does a current franchise player/all-star (whether you consider him to be one or not) get traded for player(s) that immediately make the team better. When a player like Chris Bosh gets traded, it's more often than not because the team is not focused on winning now, but rather it's focus is on winning later/eventually and rebuilding. I guess if that's what you guys are aiming for, then there's nothing really left to discuss.
Alright since this thread blew up while I was gone I'm going to address some things...

a) In terms of my logic being "severely flawed" because many teams in the league have max-salary players and by my logic there should only be 4-5. All you have to do is look at the teams with max-salary players who don't play like it and their records and my point is proven. Paying $20 mill for anyone worth less than that makes your team unable to do anything other than first-round exits for years. Look at KGs Timberworlves or JOs Pacers or the Knicks for the past few years who can't even make the playoffs or the Rockets with T-mac etc. Just because other teams are willing to panic and overpay players doesn't mean the Raptors should. By your flawed logic, the fact that so many banks invested heavily in sub-prime mortgages means that they MUST have been a good investment. Now that's flawed logic...

b) Bosh lovers say that finding a Kobe, Lebron, Paul, Wade or other real franchise players is too much of a gamble that will never happen and therefore we should try to build around Bosh. I will say that, especially with the trade pieces that we have and lack of financial flexibility, the probability of us pulling off a blockbuster trade ala the Celtics is even more unlikely, especially since so many NBA players don't even want to come to Toronto. Seriously blockbuster lopsided trades like the Celtics and Lakers trades of last year come along about as often as franchise players. I'll take my chances building a team like the Pistons when they won the title and didn't have a single player making $20 mill rather than deluding myself into thinking that Bosh is "that dude" when all the evidence says otherwise.

p.s. I'm well aware that this is all hypothetical since unlike Toni I'm pretty sure that Bosh likes TO enough that when BC offers 20 mill for x number of years he will accept and all the message board debating in the world will be for not since none of us actually run the team (and honestly, thank God for that).

Last edited by DJMason : 02-23-2009 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 02-23-2009, 01:51 PM   #34
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Default Re: Marion Already "Pissed Off"

The Pistons are a very hard team to emulate. Although he was drafted with a high pick, Billups was nothing to write home about when Detroit picked him up. Prince was a low first round pick. Hamilton was pretty much the only one of of their starting 5 that had prior success.

Also, Calderon and Bargnani (assuming the hypothetical situation) would be the worst defenders in that Detroit starting lineup. Barring an extremely large success rate with the draft and low key free agents, it's going to be extremely difficult to compensate for that lack of defense.

As far as Bosh, he's pretty much the same player that he was when the Raptors were (relatively) successful. He's always been a tier below elite and people were still fine with that while Toronto was having success. What has changed? Team success had dropped so we're pointing fingers at the highest paid guy and we should.

However, I feel there is a higher success rate in building around a talent in Bosh that while not elite, is still a know commodity. In contrast, you could go with building around Bargnani and Calderon for financial reasons but I think there is a lot lower chance of success as the Raptors would have to be very fortunate with a majority of their drafts/free agents/trades. A cheaper version of mediocrity.
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Old 02-23-2009, 03:09 PM   #35
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Default Re: Marion Already "Pissed Off"

The reason we're dogging on Bosh now is not that the team sucks now, its that the team sucks and he's asking for a pay increase come 2010. You yourself said Bosh is a tier bellow greatness, so why pay for greatness when we know we're not going to get it? If I could sign him long-term for 15-17 mill I'd do it in a heartbeat but that's not going to happen so IMO the next best option is to trade him while we can get the max value for him.

We've finally got our slashing, defending wing in Marion (who hopefully we can re-up relatively inexpensively) and hopefully we can draft high this year and pick up a potential starting SG, with Harden being the dream pickup. If we trade Bosh for a couple very good but not great players who hopefully bring some interior toughness and get some picks I'd prefer to go into next season without the drama of will he stay or will he go? And more importantly if he stays for a max salary do we have any flexibility to go anywhere good?

Again, this is probably just a pipe dream but I'm sick of having a heartless, injury-prone schmuck as the face of this franchise. We've already gone that route and it ended in disaster. At least Carter put TO on the map while he was here and had game that was exciting to watch for the first few years.
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Old 02-23-2009, 03:16 PM   #36
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Default Re: Marion Already "Pissed Off"

Oh snap, so I did saw him at Air Canada airport (where I work) on Friday night. He was coming from Miami on a connection flight from Dominican Republic. I was going to make a thread that day about Tonie possibly coming to the Raps, but I didn't have any pictures to prove it.

Damn, I should have took a picture with him and took his autograph.
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Old 02-23-2009, 04:05 PM   #37
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Default Re: Marion Already "Pissed Off"

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Originally Posted by DJMason
The reason we're dogging on Bosh now is not that the team sucks now, its that the team sucks and he's asking for a pay increase come 2010. You yourself said Bosh is a tier bellow greatness, so why pay for greatness when we know we're not going to get it? If I could sign him long-term for 15-17 mill I'd do it in a heartbeat but that's not going to happen so IMO the next best option is to trade him while we can get the max value for him.

We've finally got our slashing, defending wing in Marion (who hopefully we can re-up relatively inexpensively) and hopefully we can draft high this year and pick up a potential starting SG, with Harden being the dream pickup. If we trade Bosh for a couple very good but not great players who hopefully bring some interior toughness and get some picks I'd prefer to go into next season without the drama of will he stay or will he go? And more importantly if he stays for a max salary do we have any flexibility to go anywhere good?

Again, this is probably just a pipe dream but I'm sick of having a heartless, injury-prone schmuck as the face of this franchise. We've already gone that route and it ended in disaster. At least Carter put TO on the map while he was here and had game that was exciting to watch for the first few years.

Quote:
You yourself said Bosh is a tier bellow greatness, so why pay for greatness when we know we're not going to get it?

As mentioned earlier (not sure if it was this thread though) that is how the current NBA economy works. A 2 million a year raise from an agent's viewpoint is a joke.

As for the perceived "max value", while there haven't been many significant Bosh rumours, the one with GS involving Biedrins+filler seems like the best option out of the hypothetical deals (using your criteria for improving the interior). Now assuming that the deal goes through, IMO the team still hasn't improved much. Yes you accomodate for Bargnani but talent-wise, not much.

On the subject of Harden, I think the Raps would need to **** the bed a lot harder to move up in the draft to obtain him. As far as the swingman crop goes, it's basically Harden regarded as the sure thing while the rest of class is basically a crap shoot. So no guarantees in getting a starting calibre man at that spot.

So really it's a matter of opinion but I think lost in the shuffle is that resigning Bosh is not the be all-end all. Even if Bosh is resigned and success cannot be found, trades are always a possibility. Barring injuries, Bosh won't become O'Neal part deux and he'll still have value around the league.
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Old 02-23-2009, 04:40 PM   #38
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Default Re: Marion Already "Pissed Off"

Quote:
Originally Posted by bballnoob
As mentioned earlier (not sure if it was this thread though) that is how the current NBA economy works. A 2 million a year raise from an agent's viewpoint is a joke.

As for the perceived "max value", while there haven't been many significant Bosh rumours, the one with GS involving Biedrins+filler seems like the best option out of the hypothetical deals (using your criteria for improving the interior). Now assuming that the deal goes through, IMO the team still hasn't improved much. Yes you accomodate for Bargnani but talent-wise, not much.

On the subject of Harden, I think the Raps would need to **** the bed a lot harder to move up in the draft to obtain him. As far as the swingman crop goes, it's basically Harden regarded as the sure thing while the rest of class is basically a crap shoot. So no guarantees in getting a starting calibre man at that spot.

So really it's a matter of opinion but I think lost in the shuffle is that resigning Bosh is not the be all-end all. Even if Bosh is resigned and success cannot be found, trades are always a possibility. Barring injuries, Bosh won't become O'Neal part deux and he'll still have value around the league.

While that is true a) He is proving to be a little fragile and it only takes one of his minor injuries to be not so minor and we do have O'neal part deux and b) Signing him to a max deal and then having it not work will only diminish his value in the league more, which the NY Daily News article posted in another thread hinted has already begun so we may end up trading him in a Minnesota-Boston type deal for KG at which point we're screwed for years to come. Fact is, if we decide to trade Bosh after 2010 its probably because we've decided that he sucks and isn't worth max dollars and if that happens its more than likely that other teams have decided the same.

As for what you said about agents expecting him to get max dollars, as I've said before just because most teams are willing to overpay players doesn't mean it's smart for our team to do it. Bad contracts are common in the league yes (we've got a couple now and just ditched one) but their frequency doesn't make them any less bad. As I've also said earlier, asserting that is like asserting the fact that because alot of the I-banks "worked" by investing heavily in sub-prime mortgages, that those investments must have been good.
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Old 02-23-2009, 05:11 PM   #39
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Default Re: Marion Already "Pissed Off"

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJMason
Alright since this thread blew up while I was gone I'm going to address some things...

a) In terms of my logic being "severely flawed" because many teams in the league have max-salary players and by my logic there should only be 4-5. All you have to do is look at the teams with max-salary players who don't play like it and their records and my point is proven. Paying $20 mill for anyone worth less than that makes your team unable to do anything other than first-round exits for years. Look at KGs Timberworlves or JOs Pacers or the Knicks for the past few years who can't even make the playoffs or the Rockets with T-mac etc. Just because other teams are willing to panic and overpay players doesn't mean the Raptors should. By your flawed logic, the fact that so many banks invested heavily in sub-prime mortgages means that they MUST have been a good investment. Now that's flawed logic...

b) Bosh lovers say that finding a Kobe, Lebron, Paul, Wade or other real franchise players is too much of a gamble that will never happen and therefore we should try to build around Bosh. I will say that, especially with the trade pieces that we have and lack of financial flexibility, the probability of us pulling off a blockbuster trade ala the Celtics is even more unlikely, especially since so many NBA players don't even want to come to Toronto. Seriously blockbuster lopsided trades like the Celtics and Lakers trades of last year come along about as often as franchise players. I'll take my chances building a team like the Pistons when they won the title and didn't have a single player making $20 mill rather than deluding myself into thinking that Bosh is "that dude" when all the evidence says otherwise.

p.s. I'm well aware that this is all hypothetical since unlike Toni I'm pretty sure that Bosh likes TO enough that when BC offers 20 mill for x number of years he will accept and all the message board debating in the world will be for not since none of us actually run the team (and honestly, thank God for that).
In respose to this:
1. The year that the Pacers signed JO to that max deal the team finished 61-21 and lost the the Pistons in the conference finals. Then the brawl happened in addition to JO's injuries and the team was never the same after that, so those are extreme circumstances.

The Knicks were a complete mess, and signing one big contract didn't get them there.

I don't think T-Mac and Yao have played one full healthy season together and I don't know the last time Bosh went down with a season ending injury (if ever).

2. What do you expect if you do lets say the Biedrins + Randolph + filler for Bosh. Will that make a better team? Will that make you a team that's built for more than a 1st round exit? Or are you saying that doing a trade such as that one will give you the flexibility to land Kobe Bryant or Lebron James, because that'd be a long shot if I ever heard one.

3. I'm not a "Bosh lover," My team is the Suns, always had been, always will be. I'm just a basketball fan trying to argue a point.

4. You inadvertently furthered my point. NBA stars don't usually want to come to Toronto. So when you finally have someone who is willing, you want to ship him out for multiple players who will probably end up leaving when their contracts expire?

5. I've already explained this to Toni. A lot of trades involve two teams looking for completely different things. Minnesota wasn't going anywhere and they were looking for a complete blowup/rebuilding phase, as was Memphis. There are always teams in the position that their team is garbage and they're looking to trade their out of prime star/veteran to focus on the long term.

6. Building a team like the Pistons had is easier said than done. For one, Billups could defend better than Calderon with his eyes closed, and Sheed is also a significantly better defender than Bargnani. That team was an excellent defensive team and the current Raptors would need a serious make-over+ a ton of luck to ever hope to emulate such a team.
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Old 02-23-2009, 05:46 PM   #40
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Default Re: Marion Already "Pissed Off"

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I don't think T-Mac and Yao have played one full healthy season together and I don't know the last time Bosh went down with a season ending injury (if ever).

T-Mac.. another 'franchise' player making over 20 million dollars and his team has never made it out of the first round. Him and Yao have never played a full season together.. but they have played a few playoff series together and it didn't make a difference.

Quote:
What do you expect if you do lets say the Biedrins + Randolph + filler for Bosh. Will that make a better team? Will that make you a team that's built for more than a 1st round exit? Or are you saying that doing a trade such as that one will give you the flexibility to land Kobe Bryant or Lebron James, because that'd be a long shot if I ever heard one.

Hmm.. I would probably pull the trigger on that trade. Biedrins is a double double man who makes 10 million bucks and is built for the playoffs. He is what we need at Centre. A post-player that plays great defense and rebounds exceptionally well. He can also finish around the basket. Plus we get a young player in Anthony Randolph who has pretty decent potential as well.

Quote:
You inadvertently furthered my point. NBA stars don't usually want to come to Toronto. So when you finally have someone who is willing, you want to ship him out for multiple players who will probably end up leaving when their contracts expire?

Show me where Bosh said he wants to re-sign? When did Bosh even mention staying a Raptor past 2010? He never did, and you can tell the way Colangelo talks about the situation that something is going to happen. How we're going to "weigh" our options. Because it would be foolish to let Bosh walk and we get nothing for it.

Quote:
I've already explained this to Toni. A lot of trades involve two teams looking for completely different things. Minnesota wasn't going anywhere and they were looking for a complete blowup/rebuilding phase, as was Memphis. There are always teams in the position that their team is garbage and they're looking to trade their out of prime star/veteran to focus on the long term.

Building a team like the Pistons had is easier said than done. For one, Billups could defend better than Calderon with his eyes closed, and Sheed is also a significantly better defender than Bargnani. That team was an excellent defensive team and the current Raptors would need a serious make-over+ a ton of luck to ever hope to emulate such a team.

You don't need to explain anything to me. I know what happened with Minnesota. They were getting bounced from the playoffs year after year with KG and they needed a change. They were paying him over 20 million dollars and their depth suffered because of it. Which is basically what will happen to us and we will treadmill as a 12-16 team in the league every year. Minnesota got Al Jefferson for KG. Al Jefferson is a way better player now than KG is and maybe we can make the same trade and get a solid young player back that could be better than Bosh one day? Who knows. All I know is paying our two finesse post players 30 million dollars will cripple our depth and financial flexibility and we will be bounced from the playoffs year after year and be a 'treadmill' team. Changes need to be made, whether it being Bargnani or Bosh.
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Old 02-23-2009, 06:21 PM   #41
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Default Re: Marion Already "Pissed Off"

Another list post...

1) Sorry if I came off as calling you a Bosh-lover. I was aware that you were not a Rap fan and was aiming that more at other posters on this board.

2) Bosh hasn't had a season-ending surgery yet, but he is a fragile big who misses a solid 10+ games a year and is only one awkward landing away from becoming a T-Mac or JO. As Toni has also said, T-Mac and Bosh have another thing in common: disappearing acts in the playoffs.

3) The Bosh-Bierdrins deal is not a quick-fix but that's not what we should be looking for. We need to start searching for a new franchise guy through the draft or young prospects since sitting on our hands is going to get us nowhere in the future just as it does now. If we're going to be a 30-win team this season, "quick fixes" should be the last thing on our mind. We need a franchise player and despite what the TO media and Bosh's agent would like us to believe, he isn't one and therefore its time to move on and try again.

4) As I've said, the likelihood of us having two allstars fall into our lap as what happened in Boston (especially with the roster that we have) is even less than trying to get "lucky" through the draft or free agency.

5) Even if we get 2 allstars to fall into our lap, Bosh's leadership, inspirational and defensive skills are nill so an already unlikely scenario would probably not lead to a title as it did for Boston anyway.

6) Bosh is not so happy to be in TO and has never once assured us that he'll stay and its better to trade him now for maximum value than lose him for nothing or get less back for him given his rental-player status next year.

7) A Piston-like team is also a long-shot but so is any plan that will ultimately lead to a championship. Only 1 out of 30 teams does it a year and only about 3 or 4 solidly contend so long-shots need to be taken if you're ever going to get ahead of the pack.
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Old 02-23-2009, 06:23 PM   #42
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If this is true, there truly is hope for change in Toronto!



Everybody sport the avatar and join the movement to sign Antoine as a Raptor!

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Old 02-23-2009, 06:39 PM   #43
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Default Re: Marion Already "Pissed Off"

You never fail to amaze me.
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Old 02-23-2009, 06:44 PM   #44
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Default Re: Marion Already "Pissed Off"

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If this is true, there truly is hope for change in Toronto!



Everybody sport the avatar and join the movement to sign Antoine as a Raptor!

nice
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Old 02-23-2009, 06:45 PM   #45
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Default Re: Marion Already "Pissed Off"

Shimmy
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