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Old 02-26-2009, 11:42 PM   #31
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Default Re: Michael Vick Released from Prison

Quote:
Originally Posted by -primetime-
we have "choice"...
What do you mean? Other animals don't face 'choice'?
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Old 02-27-2009, 12:02 AM   #32
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Default Re: Michael Vick Released from Prison

lol.. are you serious?
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Old 02-27-2009, 12:16 AM   #33
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Default Re: Michael Vick Released from Prison

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Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
What do you mean? Other animals don't face 'choice'?
no...they really don't have an understanding between what is right and wrong and choices in life to make based on that understanding...they just do what they are told, or what their instinct is...

although, I can remember reading somewhere that scientists did show some signs that maybe chimps do have a sense of morals...but I don't think that was proven...
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Old 02-27-2009, 12:35 AM   #34
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Default Re: Michael Vick Released from Prison

Quote:
Originally Posted by -primetime-
no...they really don't have an understanding between what is right and wrong and choices in life to make based on that understanding...they just do what they are told, or what their instinct is...

although, I can remember reading somewhere that scientists did show some signs that maybe chimps do have a sense of morals...but I don't think that was proven...
A. How does the fact that humans can 'choose' to do 'right' or 'wrong' make humans a 'superior' species? Maybe if humans acted more instinctively or the way in which nature intended, we wouldn't think of the world as a place that has to adapt to us, not the other way around?

B. If animals like dogs react strictly upon instinct, how do you explain the numerous accounts every day of dogs saving their owners' lives? If your house is burning down while you are sleeping, wouldn't a dog's 'natural instinct' to be to flee the house instead of risking its own life for another? Yet, there are stories like this everyday.

C. A larger brain and specialized vocal cords are the only things separating us from other species on this planet and that larger brain often leads to wickedness.

D. If the dogs that Vick kept in cages with their only escape being designed fights had a choice, do you think that they would choose that kind of life? If the strays and pets that people like Vick pick off of the streets and use as 'practice' for their trained fighting dogs had a choice, do you think that they would choose that kind of end to their lives? These animals aren't given an opportunity to make a 'choice.' In fact, if they refuse to fight (a choice), they are tortured and killed.


We not only choose our own fates, but the fates of others, including helpless animals. The fact that we did have choice makes these 'decisions' by Vick even more disgusting and egregious... And they make our entire species look like savages.

Last edited by RedBlackAttack : 02-27-2009 at 12:39 AM.
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Old 02-27-2009, 12:42 AM   #35
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Default Re: Michael Vick Released from Prison

Has anyone actually ever seen a dog fight? I've personally never even seen a dog bite someone. I seen some of those pics and it looks pretty brutal don't know why he would be doing that when he is a NFL player like it's not like he did it for the money it was straight entertainment witch is kinda messed up.


Don't know the whole situation so can't really comment but seems to me like he has done his time and his image\life has took a nasty hit(as it should) but people should just let it go and move on.



On a side note any video evidence of the dog fights? cause I'd be lying if I said I wasn't curious what happens between to angry dogs.
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Old 02-27-2009, 12:47 AM   #36
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Default Re: Michael Vick Released from Prison

Quote:
Originally Posted by NuggetsFan
Has anyone actually ever seen a dog fight? I've personally never even seen a dog bite someone. I seen some of those pics and it looks pretty brutal don't know why he would be doing that when he is a NFL player like it's not like he did it for the money it was straight entertainment witch is kinda messed up.


Don't know the whole situation so can't really comment but seems to me like he has done his time and his image\life has took a nasty hit(as it should) but people should just let it go and move on.



On a side note any video evidence of the dog fights? cause I'd be lying if I said I wasn't curious what happens between to angry dogs.
There really isn't much to it. Two dogs, who have been trained to kill, fight to the death. If a dog refuses to fight, it is usually shot in the head on the spot or tortured and then killed. That is what the whole situation with the electrocution came from. Dogs that refused to fight were electrocuted and hung by Vick and his buddies. They did that to thin out the 'weak' dogs.

...You really want to see that?
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Old 02-27-2009, 12:49 AM   #37
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Default Re: Michael Vick Released from Prison

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
A. How does the fact that humans can 'choose' to do 'right' or 'wrong' make humans a 'superior' species? Maybe if humans acted more instinctively or the way in which nature intended, we wouldn't think of the world as a place that has to adapt to us, not the other way around?

we are acting the way that nature intended...

and not everyone "CHOOSES" to think of the world as a place that has to adapt to us...
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
B. If animals like dogs react strictly upon instinct, how do you explain the numerous accounts every day of dogs saving their owners' lives? If your house is burning down while you are sleeping, wouldn't a dog's 'natural instinct' to be to flee the house instead of risking its own life for another? Yet, there are stories like this everyday.
no, his natural instinct is to save his owner...

you yourself explained this to me with the Sigfried and Roy attack not really being an attack...

dogs are taught to obey...if the owner teaches it to fetch a paper then it does so because that is what it was taught to do...if an owner teaches a dog to fight till the death, they will do that as well...

they are not making any CHOICES based on what is morally right or wrong...
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
C. A larger brain and specialized vocal cords are the only things separating us from other species on this planet and that larger brain often leads to wickedness.
or kindness...depending on what you CHOOSE...unlike other animals

by your way of thinking a rat exterminator is just as bad as Hitler...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
D. If the dogs that Vick kept in cages with their only escape being designed fights had a choice, do you think that they would choose that kind of life? If the strays and pets that people like Vick pick off of the streets and use as 'practice' for their trained fighting dogs, do you think that they would choose that kind of end to their lives?
no I don't think they wuold CHOOSE to fight...if they had that ability

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
We not only choose our own fates, but the fates of others, including helpless animals. The fact that we did have choice makes these 'decisions' by Vick even more disgusting and egregious... And they make our entire species look like savages.
what Vick did was awful...no question

but I don't think he makes every human on this planet look savage...
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Old 02-27-2009, 12:55 AM   #38
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Default Re: Michael Vick Released from Prison

Food for thought:

Why is it acceptable for Jimmy and his son Timmy and their VP Dick Cheney to shoot Bambi in the face for fun, but Michael Vick is held to a completely different standard? To take it a step further, what is different about sticking a hook in a fish, or even splattering a fly against a wall? Isn't taking a life, taking a life regardless? Who are we to judge which animals are more important and have more of a right to live? (and just to highlight how painfully simple our race is, why does the pecking order seem to based solely on the size of the animal?)

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Old 02-27-2009, 01:00 AM   #39
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Default Re: Michael Vick Released from Prison

I'm not going to debate this point-by-point, because it would lead to a never ending point/counter-point. However, saying that my way of thinking is that an exterminator is akin to Hitler is ridiculous. Rats carry diseases. Their survival (when they creep into our homes) is in direct conflict with our own. Animals kill other animals in order to survive... That is nature and it really doesn't have a place in this particular conversation.

I will focus on this remark, however...

Quote:
Originally Posted by -primetime-
no I don't think they wuold CHOOSE to fight...if they had that ability

The only reason that they don't have that choice is because they are trapped in cages with chains around their necks. Also, some dogs DO choose not to fight and they are the first to die as a result. Research dog fighting and you will understand this fundamental staple in dog fighting circles.

So... Some dogs DO choose... they just pay for those choices with their lives.
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Old 02-27-2009, 01:00 AM   #40
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Default Re: Michael Vick Released from Prison

Quote:
Originally Posted by HAzE024
Food for thought:

Why is it acceptable for Jimmy and his son Timmy and their VP Dick Cheney to shoot Bambi in the face for fun, but Michael Vick is held to a completely different standard? To take it a step further, what is different about sticking a hook in a fish, or even splattering a fly against a wall? Isn't taking a life, taking a life regardless? Who are we to judge which animals are more important and have more of a right to live? (and just to highlight how painfully simple our race is, why does the pecking order seem to based solely on the size of the animal?)
a few things...

-when hunting or fishing the catch is either eaten or thrown back unharmed...

-when hunting or fishing the animal isn't forced to fight till the death and then tortured when it loses

-dogs where bred to be man's companion in life...this is not a wild animal, it is ment to be loved, not killed...
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Old 02-27-2009, 01:09 AM   #41
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Default Re: Michael Vick Released from Prison

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
I'm not going to debate this point-by-point, because it would lead to a never ending point/counter-point. However, saying that my way of thinking is that an exterminator is akin to Hitler is ridiculous. Rats carry diseases. Their survival (when they creep into our homes) is in direct conflict with our own. Animals kill other animals in order to survive... That is nature and it really doesn't have a place in this particular conversation.

I will focus on this remark, however...
the same thing can be said about humans?

so you are saying rats are acceptable to kill because they would kill us?

what about bird?

is killing a sparrow just as bad as killing a human?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
The only reason that they don't have that choice is because they are trapped in cages with chains around their necks. Also, some dogs DO choose not to fight and they are the first to die as a result. Research dog fighting and you will understand this fundamental staple in dog fighting circles.

So... Some dogs DO choose... they just pay for those choices with their lives.
ok...yeah they do have choices if you look at it that way I guess...

every animal "chooses" to eat due to the fact that it is hungry...


the difference is that they don't make choices based on morals or what is right or wrong...



some little kids don't make fun of the fat girl at school....they know it is hurtful and wrong, and they don't want that girl to feel that hurt...

other little kids will make fun of the fat girl at school, and call her a whale, or an ugly blimp...they also know that what they are doing is wrong, and hurtful....but their greed to get laughs and attention from others leads them to hurt others...


animals do not have these types of choices in life...they have no sense of morals....they only know what they are taught, or what their instinct tells them...
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Old 02-27-2009, 01:20 AM   #42
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Default Re: Michael Vick Released from Prison

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBlackAttack
A. How does the fact that humans can 'choose' to do 'right' or 'wrong' make humans a 'superior' species? Maybe if humans acted more instinctively or the way in which nature intended, we wouldn't think of the world as a place that has to adapt to us, not the other way around?

B. If animals like dogs react strictly upon instinct, how do you explain the numerous accounts every day of dogs saving their owners' lives? If your house is burning down while you are sleeping, wouldn't a dog's 'natural instinct' to be to flee the house instead of risking its own life for another? Yet, there are stories like this everyday.

C. A larger brain and specialized vocal cords are the only things separating us from other species on this planet and that larger brain often leads to wickedness.

D. If the dogs that Vick kept in cages with their only escape being designed fights had a choice, do you think that they would choose that kind of life? If the strays and pets that people like Vick pick off of the streets and use as 'practice' for their trained fighting dogs had a choice, do you think that they would choose that kind of end to their lives? These animals aren't given an opportunity to make a 'choice.' In fact, if they refuse to fight (a choice), they are tortured and killed.


We not only choose our own fates, but the fates of others, including helpless animals. The fact that we did have choice makes these 'decisions' by Vick even more disgusting and egregious... And they make our entire species look like savages.



Do you have any pets?
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Old 02-27-2009, 01:23 AM   #43
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Default Re: Michael Vick Released from Prison

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He82NBjJqf8
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Old 02-27-2009, 01:50 AM   #44
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Default Re: Michael Vick Released from Prison

Quote:
Originally Posted by -primetime-
the same thing can be said about humans?

so you are saying rats are acceptable to kill because they would kill us?

I'm saying that, if a rat is a threat to our well-being and we are capable of killing them, it is an understandable 'choice.' Killing other animals in order to ensure the survival of your species is a very natural function, for any animal.

Comparing that to Hitler slaughtering thousands of Jews because of religious affiliation is something entirely different and I don't think there is any correlation between the two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -primetime-
what about bird?

is killing a sparrow just as bad as killing a human?

I just don't look at things in such black-and-white terms. You won't catch me killing either a sparrow or a human, unless said sparrow/human threatens the lives of me and my loved ones.

I don't think that the killing of one animal is acceptable while the other is abhorrent simply because of the evolution of one species when compared to another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -primetime-
ok...yeah they do have choices if you look at it that way I guess...

every animal "chooses" to eat due to the fact that it is hungry...

How does the choice to eat correlate to the choice to fight? Like I said, some dogs choose to disobey what they have been trained to do and not fight. How do you explain that?

You act like dogs and other animals are walking robots with no emotions or characteristics that would set them apart from a washing machine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -primetime-
the difference is that they don't make choices based on morals or what is right or wrong...

Morals are man-made societal norms that dictate judgment and they vary from country-to-country. Expecting an animal that is not even of our own species to have innate ability to judge what humans view as 'moral' and things that are 'immoral' is a ridiculous standard to set.

Things that we may find atrocious and 'immoral' activities by tribes in Afghanistan or Africa or Japan are considered the norm in those environments.

I just don't believe that 'morals' are hardwired into our brains from birth. They are learned societal expectations that become ingrained in our culture.
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Old 02-27-2009, 01:51 AM   #45
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Default Re: Michael Vick Released from Prison

Quote:
Originally Posted by East River Livn'
Do you have any pets?
Yes... two dogs.
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