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Old 03-03-2009, 01:35 PM   #31
A.M.G.
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Default Re: What is Bargnani's ideal position?

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Originally Posted by b4ball
How does having a bruising centre help Bosh? Bosh needs to have the lane cleared for him to have one of his two offensive moves available. With a bruising centre in the lane Bosh's game is down to one offensive play, shooting.
Uhhhh, 3 second rule? No center can just camp in the paint. In halfcourt sets the team runs isolation plays for Bosh to allow him to drive and create, it's not that hard. JO could have prvided this if he wasn't always looking for his own offence. I like what JO brought, but we need a shot-blocker/rebounder/post-defender who doesn't care about his stats, letting Bosh stat stuff away. Again, kind of like Kendrick Perkins, except not a serial killer. Then procure a quality scoring/defensive SG, possibly by trading Bargnani.

I'm getting concerned that they're starting to think about gearing this team to be entirely a fastbreak team, which would reduce Bosh's effectivenessand pretty much force him to leave in FA. You need to find a balance between fastbreak/outlet-passes and halfcourt. Our two best players are Bosh and Marion, one of whom excels on the fastbreak, one of whom is a halfcourt weapon. It's up to Mr. Calderon and hopefully a new coach to make that work next year (assuming we get an established coach and Marion stays).

People say that without Bargnani we'd have a hole at center, which is somewhat true because it's hella hard to find any decent centers, but Bargs doesn't give you what a center is supposed to anyways. I mean he's improving in these areas, but will he be strong enough and tough enough by the time Bosh is a free agent? Probably not. And then we're stuck with Bargs as the franchise for the near future........ which could turn out better than I'm picturing it in my mind, the kid has shown flashes.
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Old 03-03-2009, 02:17 PM   #32
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Default Re: What is Bargnani's ideal position?

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Originally Posted by A.M.G.
Uhhhh, 3 second rule? No center can just camp in the paint. In halfcourt sets the team runs isolation plays for Bosh to allow him to drive and create, it's not that hard. JO could have prvided this if he wasn't always looking for his own offence. I like what JO brought, but we need a shot-blocker/rebounder/post-defender who doesn't care about his stats, letting Bosh stat stuff away. Again, kind of like Kendrick Perkins, except not a serial killer. Then procure a quality scoring/defensive SG, possibly by trading Bargnani.

I'm getting concerned that they're starting to think about gearing this team to be entirely a fastbreak team, which would reduce Bosh's effectivenessand pretty much force him to leave in FA. You need to find a balance between fastbreak/outlet-passes and halfcourt. Our two best players are Bosh and Marion, one of whom excels on the fastbreak, one of whom is a halfcourt weapon. It's up to Mr. Calderon and hopefully a new coach to make that work next year (assuming we get an established coach and Marion stays).

People say that without Bargnani we'd have a hole at center, which is somewhat true because it's hella hard to find any decent centers, but Bargs doesn't give you what a center is supposed to anyways. I mean he's improving in these areas, but will he be strong enough and tough enough by the time Bosh is a free agent? Probably not. And then we're stuck with Bargs as the franchise for the near future........ which could turn out better than I'm picturing it in my mind, the kid has shown flashes.

It's really a toss up I guess. I think all Raptors fans are confused about what will happen to this team. Maybe Bargnani turns into a franchise player.. maybe not.

Is trading him or Bosh the answer?
Can they both co-exist and be successful?
Will Marion resign with the team?
Who will we draft to improve this team now and in the future?
Can we bring back guys like Rasho and Delfino this summer?
If Marion doesn't re-sign can we acquire another top tier FA?
Will Bosh leave or stay?
What could we get for him if he tells management he will leave?
Can Bargnani sustain the offensive production he's been showing lately?
What kind of low-post presence would we be able to acquire?
Is Calderon the right PG for the style of play this team wants?
What kind of SG can we acquire to replace the aging AP?
Can we shed Kapono and Banks' contracts somehow before next season begins?

There is so many questions that we want answered but we will have to wait until at least after the draft and when Bosh tells management what he will decide to do to see what our options really are. I'm just really confused about the direction of this team..
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Old 03-03-2009, 03:10 PM   #33
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Default Re: What is Bargnani's ideal position?

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Originally Posted by SESSEL15
Interesting viewpoint, most of the posters on here will disagree with you. I'm still on the fence on whether I believe Bosh-Bargnani will work out or not. The rest of the season should be an assessment of how Marion-Bosh-Bargnani will turn out. The lack of back court talent definately has aided in the bashing of Bosh-Bargnani front court. The other thing is, if we can't improve our talent on the wings, we have to trade one of our strengths (Bosh Bargnani) to spread the talent to other positions.

Just a thought but does anyone think Bosh would offer to stay for less money if it meant the team could go out a get a talented wing man?

Nope. This next contract he signs will probably be the most important for him for financial security. He's going to try to get all he can get. If he was six or seven years older and saw the championship window closing, maybe.
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Old 03-03-2009, 04:09 PM   #34
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Default Re: What is Bargnani's ideal position?

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Originally Posted by A.M.G.
Hopefully we can work Bargnani's value up. He'll be a decent player, maybe even an All-Star once or twice.

Seriously, keeping Bargnani equals Bosh leaving, Bargnani as franchise equals fail. It's a pickle. The problem is that Bosh and Bargnani are redundant offensively, and both are kind of soft and weak. Except Bosh is much better and consistent.

this season:
Bargs (as starting C) 18,8 ppg on 14,4 attempts, 6,5 rpg
Bosh 22,4 ppg on 15,9 attempts, 9,5 rpg

Bargs will likely demand 10mln for an extension.
i dunno if that 3,6 ppg/3 rpg is worth giving Bosh 18 or 20mln, plus Bargnani has a ton of potential that he could develop, Bosh has pretty much reached his max potential.
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Old 03-03-2009, 05:28 PM   #35
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Default Re: What is Bargnani's ideal position?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doko
this season:
Bargs (as starting C) 18,8 ppg on 14,4 attempts, 6,5 rpg
Bosh 22,4 ppg on 15,9 attempts, 9,5 rpg

Bargs will likely demand 10mln for an extension.
i dunno if that 3,6 ppg/3 rpg is worth giving Bosh 18 or 20mln, plus Bargnani has a ton of potential that he could develop, Bosh has pretty much reached his max potential.

Those two things for me are what push me slightly into Bargs' corner. The money and the fact that he has yet to reach the ceiling whereas I think that its pretty clear that Bosh has (granted his ceiling is pretty damn good). On the other hand, Bargs has yet to prove that he can consistently put up the numbers that he has. The real problem is that by the time that we find out whether or not Bargs can do what he's done consistently, it will be the end of Bosh's contract and trading him would get us way less in return than trading him now. The Raps have some incredibly tough choices to make this summer, and I'm quite happy that I don't have to make them.
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Old 03-03-2009, 05:31 PM   #36
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Default Re: What is Bargnani's ideal position?

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Originally Posted by DJMason
Those two things for me are what push me slightly into Bargs' corner. The money and the fact that he has yet to reach the ceiling whereas I think that its pretty clear that Bosh has (granted his ceiling is pretty damn good). On the other hand, Bargs has yet to prove that he can consistently put up the numbers that he has. The real problem is that by the time that we find out whether or not Bargs can do what he's done consistently, it will be the end of Bosh's contract and trading him would get us way less in return than trading him now. The Raps have some incredibly tough choices to make this summer, and I'm quite happy that I don't have to make them.

At least Colangelo has a lot of options now that JO's contract is out of town. He can be pretty creative with the draft and cap space. Tough decisions yes, but hopefully he makes the right ones that don't limit this team for the long haul.
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Old 03-03-2009, 06:01 PM   #37
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Default Re: What is Bargnani's ideal position?

Quote:
Originally Posted by b4ball
How does having a bruising centre help Bosh? Bosh needs to have the lane cleared for him to have one of his two offensive moves available. With a bruising centre in the lane Bosh's game is down to one offensive play, shooting.

Not a bad point. Sometimes it seems the thinking by some people is that it's better to have some scrub at Center who won't do anything but grab boards and block shots and will otherwise get out of Bosh's way, rather than the 20+ points, 5 or 6 rebounds and a block or two that Bargnani can bring.

Has nobody noticed how we're seeing two 20 and 8 guys develop in front of us? And this isn't the same as O'Neal/Bosh, with one guy forcing it way too much and the other seeming really uncomfortable. They actually look better and better being on the floor at the same time.
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Old 03-03-2009, 06:13 PM   #38
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Default Re: What is Bargnani's ideal position?

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Originally Posted by new noise
Not a bad point. Sometimes it seems the thinking by some people is that it's better to have some scrub at Center who won't do anything but grab boards and block shots and will otherwise get out of Bosh's way, rather than the 20+ points, 5 or 6 rebounds and a block or two that Bargnani can bring.

Has nobody noticed how we're seeing two 20 and 8 guys develop in front of us? And this isn't the same as O'Neal/Bosh, with one guy forcing it way too much and the other seeming really uncomfortable. They actually look better and better being on the floor at the same time.

Two 20 point big men is great and all, but when you have an older Shaq dropping 40+ and thus negating their combined production, we have a problem.
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Old 03-03-2009, 08:30 PM   #39
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Default Re: What is Bargnani's ideal position?

his usual position is on the three point line standing still looking like an idiot
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Old 03-03-2009, 10:01 PM   #40
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Default Re: What is Bargnani's ideal position?

Bryan Colangelo was brought in to make MLSE money and he has been doing a great job of it. This is what Colangelo is trying to do. Winning a championship would clearly help that but he's not going to go all out and take more silly risks to get there while the cash is still coming in.

IMO, Colangelo would rather have an entertaining and likable team than a solid winning one. I bet if the choice came up to mold the Raptors into either his old Amare-Marion-Nash Phoenix teams or the recent championship Spurs teams, Phoenix would be the more desirable scenario for Colangelo. To me this is evident by the constant attempts at a fast-break team (bringing in Ford, Triano over Mitchell, preaching running, Marion) as well as his infatuation with unorthodox lineups (Bosh/Bargnani).

Colangelo probably knows that Bosh/Bargnani at PF/C will not get you a title but I doubt he cares. Get some better pieces around them and you have a likable team that should make the playoffs consistently, be entertaining and keep the people in the seats and the money rolling in. I'm still shocked Anthony Parker wasn't traded at the deadline for even a low 1st round pick. That would've been the smart move for the long run. But the Raptors have to maintain the illusion of trying to get to the playoffs this year or the people will stop coming. Parker also fits with building a likable team.

I'm generally a rational person so I understand that the point of all of this is to make money. That's why Colangelo was brought in. But being a hardcore sports fan is not exactly a rational thing. As a sports fan, I want the Raptors to become a title contender. But getting out of sports fan mode, I can easily envision the Raptors being a treadmill team for years to come and management/ownership being perfectly fine it as long as the Raptors continue to make money.


Oh and also, Bargnani an All-Star? How is that going to happen? Howard has the East starting C spot locked up for as long as he in the conference. Then you have other young C's who are, IMO, already better than Bargnani like Okafor, Horford, Lopez and maybe Bogut. Maybe when KG retires, Bosh is traded to the West putting Bargnani at PF and hopefully no good PF's are drafted into the East during that time.

Last edited by Qwyjibo : 03-03-2009 at 10:36 PM.
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Old 03-03-2009, 10:50 PM   #41
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Default Re: What is Bargnani's ideal position?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwyjibo
Bryan Colangelo was brought in to make MLSE money and he has been doing a great job of it. This is what Colangelo is trying to do. Winning a championship would clearly help that but he's not going to go all out and take more silly risks to get there while the cash is still coming in.

IMO, Colangelo would rather have an entertaining and likable team than a solid winning one. I bet if the choice came up to mold the Raptors into either his old Amare-Marion-Nash Phoenix teams or the recent championship Spurs teams, Phoenix would be the more desirable scenario for Colangelo. To me this is evident by the constant attempts at a fast-break team (bringing in Ford, Triano over Mitchell, preaching running, Marion) as well as his infatuation with unorthodox lineups (Bosh/Bargnani).

Colangelo probably knows that Bosh/Bargnani at PF/C will not get you a title but I doubt he cares. Get some better pieces around them and you have a likable team that should make the playoffs consistently, be entertaining and keep the people in the seats and the money rolling in. I'm still shocked Anthony Parker wasn't traded at the deadline for even a low 1st round pick. That would've been the smart move for the long run. But the Raptors have to maintain the illusion of trying to get to the playoffs this year or the people will stop coming. Parker also fits with building a likable team.

I'm generally a rational person so I understand that the point of all of this is to make money. That's why Colangelo was brought in. But being a hardcore sports fan is not exactly a rational thing. As a sports fan, I want the Raptors to become a title contender. But getting out of sports fan mode, I can easily envision the Raptors being a treadmill team for years to come and management/ownership being perfectly fine it as long as the Raptors continue to make money.


Oh and also, Bargnani an All-Star? How is that going to happen? Howard has the East starting C spot locked up for as long as he in the conference. Then you have other young C's who are, IMO, already better than Bargnani like Okafor, Horford, Lopez and maybe Bogut. Maybe when KG retires, Bosh is traded to the West putting Bargnani at PF and hopefully no good PF's are drafted into the East during that time.

Q's back everyone!

:)

Can't say I disagree with you though, especially in light of our failing economy. Continuing to make money for all of those retiring teachers is paramount to MLSE.
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Old 03-03-2009, 11:14 PM   #42
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Default Re: What is Bargnani's ideal position?

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Originally Posted by Qwyjibo
Oh and also, Bargnani an All-Star? How is that going to happen? Howard has the East starting C spot locked up for as long as he in the conference. Then you have other young C's who are, IMO, already better than Bargnani like Okafor, Horford, Lopez and maybe Bogut. Maybe when KG retires, Bosh is traded to the West putting Bargnani at PF and hopefully no good PF's are drafted into the East during that time.

Those players might be better than Bargnani defensively (Not by Much) and offensively none of them can even touch him. I don't think it's unrealistic to say that he can't be an allstar next year at center. Especially if he can put up 18-6 consistently. Does anyone else think the above players are better than Andrea?

NOTE: After the game tonight I'm starting to acknowledge that SG is the main deficiency with this team. Enough of Bargnani and Bosh, they played great and scored 25+ with 7 REB each and at least 2 BPG. Marion was solid and brought 18-10 with 3 STL on 50%. Calderon was a great distributor with 16 APG.

Then we have AP. 1/8 for 3 points. I've been noticing a trend with Parker. Whenever he scores more than 15 points we usually win the game, because we can always bank on our top 4 players being fairly consistent with their productivity. This needs to be the number one priority this summer, my opinion for the rebounding post stays, but maybe more of a bench presence for next season. I think we still need one more season to assess what the duo of Bosh and Bargnani can do, because the lack of production from the SG spot is crippling this team. Does everyone agree?

+ Kapono 3/11 for 7 points.
+ Banks DNP.
That's 10 million follars of our payroll!? COMMON.

I would love for us to somehow trade up and get James Harden..
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Old 03-03-2009, 11:19 PM   #43
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Default Re: What is Bargnani's ideal position?

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Those players might be better than Bargnani defensively (Not by Much) and offensively none of them can even touch him. I don't think it's unrealistic to say that he can't be an allstar next year at center. Especially if he can put up 18-6 consistently. Does anyone else think the above players are better than Andrea?
If you asked me who I would rather have at C for the Raptors, starting a team or whatever, then I would take all of those over Bargnani. I'll take a solid 14 & 10 with better D at C (Okafor) than 18 & 6 from a player like Bargnani.

It's not like I named older players who won't improve either. If you say Bargnani is going to improve then it would be fair to say that Horford and Lopez will as well. Two players I think are already better at holding down the C spot.
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Old 03-03-2009, 11:28 PM   #44
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Default Re: What is Bargnani's ideal position?

I'd definitely take Brook Lopez before Bargnani. I don't know about Horford, Okafor or Bogut though. Maybe Bogut pre-injury. I don't think i'd take Okafor or Horford.
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Old 03-04-2009, 02:41 AM   #45
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Default Re: What is Bargnani's ideal position?

Q, you know better then to say that D12 has the All Star position all sewn up. All Star position are not given out by position.

Make point and be honest with your assertion. What you said did nothing to educate those who don't know the diference. I have come to expect more from you.

Last edited by b4ball : 03-04-2009 at 10:43 AM.
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