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Old 03-15-2009, 05:23 PM   #31
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Default Re: What we lose if we lose Chris Bosh...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
We don't have cap space as of right now and not too many trading assets anymore so the only way to have gotten someone of high calibur to play with CB4 was through the trade market. Something that Bosh has no control over, that's all on BC and we've already seen what a great job he's done for us in that regard. However this summer we're losing 4 contracts (Marion, Parker, Voskuhl, Graham) and have some room to make some moves. How well of a bargaining chip do you see for an all-star vet who wants to win now coming to Toronto to say "we don't have much, but we do have Andrea Bargnani."

In writing this, I guess that's where we completely differ. I believe that it's possible for us to build a legit playoff contender in the next 2 seasons rather than to get rid of our very core and then roll the dice
.

Ya that's pretty much where we differ. I don't expect us to be able to sign allstar vets who want to win now if we trade Bosh, I expect us to search for a new franchise player rather than pretending that we've found one. Whether we trade Bosh or not I don't see any way that we can legitimately contend for a title in the next 2-3 years with Orlando, Cleveland and Miami emerging (left out Boston because they're getting old but hell can throw them in too). Given that fact we can either a) be the Leafs and treadmill with a faux franchise player at the healm or b) start looking for an actual franchise player to build around. I'll take a tiny chance that we land a transcendent player who can carry us to a title over a 0% chance that Bosh does it.
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Old 03-15-2009, 07:57 PM   #32
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Default Re: What we lose if we lose Chris Bosh...

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Originally Posted by bokes15
I said a playoff contender, not a title contender. Each year, there's 5> legitimate title contenders. To me, a team like Portland as good as they have been are not in that category. This year, it's LA, SA, Boston, Cleveland, and (borderline but not really) Orlando.

It's easier to turn a borderline playoff team (with at least one legitimate all-star vet) into a title contending team than it is to turn a lottery team in complete rebuilding mode into a title contending team. And especially when we have a GM like BC.... His resume as of the last 2 seasons with signings and trades is extremely unimpressive.

Dude WTF.. seriously. You give so much props to Bosh when he has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for the Raptors organization and brought them absolutely nowhere. The times are tough right now and he spends all his time talking about how it's another loss and there's always next game and all this garbage. We need more guys like Marion who actually get pissed off when we lose. Bosh is not a mentally strong individual and has shown that he has given up on the team many times throughout this season. As evidenced by his video blogs where he talks about Shaq and Stephen A. Smith and how he doesn't want to talk about whats going on on the court. Those things are NOT important and maybe instead of talking about irrelevant of the court fueds he can address to the fans about the team and the dreadful product they've displayed on the court this season. This man will NOT lead the Raptors anywhere.. he's anti-clutch, not mentally strong and a TERRIBLE leader. I don't understand why people don't see this. We won't get a good return on Bosh because of those characteristics. Yes, he is a good player, but he is lacking the talent and passion to lead a team anywhere significant.

As far as BC goes, he is a two time executive of the year and a very respected man in the league. He got us Jamario Moon and Pops from the D-League and made them into very good NBA players and did it at an extremely cheap price. He's making MLSE **** loads of money and is trying to put together a good team in Toronto. These things take time, and yes some moves aren't very popular, but just getting Hump out of Rafael Araujo who's sitting the bench somewhere in Russia right now is a huge achievement. The GM position is the last thing this team needs changed and whoever disagrees with that is ignorant. The coaching situation needs to be fixed ASAP and if we can get some quality young talent for Bosh I'm all for it. I would be ecstatic to have Bargnani over Bosh because he at least displays some passion and will stay in Toronto for a longer period of time than Bosh. Just having Bosh say that he "isn't sure" what's going to happen in 2010, means that he's not fully committed to the franchise and is weighing his options to leave. So you know what? **** that lanky bastard and trade him. Let's get some talented young players who actually want to play here and build from the ground up. Getting hard-working players like Pops and Marion are the first steps in building a tough, playoff bound team. Bosh and his softness is not a desired characteristic in the direction of this team.. and BC knows it.
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Old 03-15-2009, 08:36 PM   #33
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Default Re: What we lose if we lose Chris Bosh...

Either all Raptors fans are complete morons or it's just this guy. ^^^

Done nothing for your franchise? "**** that lanky bastard and trade him?" He's literally the only reason you guys recovered from the VC for nobody trade. I'd be happy if I took a guy 4th in the draft and he was giving me a steady 20/9 every year and led a bottom feeder to the playoffs. Raptors fans are ridiculous. Give Bargnani 2 years of being the franchise player and if you guys don't have a championship in the 2nd year you guys would be all over his ass.

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Old 03-15-2009, 08:59 PM   #34
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Default Re: What we lose if we lose Chris Bosh...

Quote:
Originally Posted by haterofhaters
Either all Raptors fans are complete morons or it's just this guy. ^^^

No, fortunately he's not a representation of the entire Raptors community. That little essay rant he went on showed that he basically just hates the guy, plain and simple.
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**** that lanky bastard and trade him.
Quote:
You give so much props to Bosh when he has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for the Raptors organization

When you see posts like this, an emotional rant with more insults and hatred than actual substance, you know that it's not worth responding to, so I won't even bother and you shouldn't either.
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Old 03-15-2009, 11:02 PM   #35
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Default Re: What we lose if we lose Chris Bosh...

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Originally Posted by bokes15
No, fortunately he's not a representation of the entire Raptors community. That little essay rant he went on showed that he basically just hates the guy, plain and simple.

When you see posts like this, an emotional rant with more insults and hatred than actual substance, you know that it's not worth responding to, so I won't even bother and you shouldn't either.

Maybe I was a little harsh. But the way he's been playing lately (Soft, No Passion, Lack of Leadership) mixed in with his unwillingness to be straight up with the Raptors community about his intentions for 2010 pisses me off. How does a guy like that expect to gain respect from the fan base when he clearly doesn't show interest in the games he plays in or the direction of the team. His lack of leadership has left me losing a lot of respect for him, and I'm sure the same can be said about many other Raptors fans. Some people still love him but the honeymoon phase is over and decisions will be made sooner rather than later. So we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

Hopefully that was a little bit more of a composed rant for you to reply to bokes.
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Old 03-16-2009, 12:30 PM   #36
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Default Re: What we lose if we lose Chris Bosh...

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Originally Posted by bokes15
I said a playoff contender, not a title contender. Each year, there's 5> legitimate title contenders. To me, a team like Portland as good as they have been are not in that category. This year, it's LA, SA, Boston, Cleveland, and (borderline but not really) Orlando.

It's easier to turn a borderline playoff team (with at least one legitimate all-star vet) into a title contending team than it is to turn a lottery team in complete rebuilding mode into a title contending team. And especially when we have a GM like BC.... His resume as of the last 2 seasons with signings and trades is extremely unimpressive.

I'll have to disagree with you here. While it may take longer, being a lottery team is what it takes to eventually get lucky and land that player that can will a team to victory. If it was so much easier for borderline playoff teams to become conteners you'd think that Golden State would have made some noise by now, or Washington before they got flat out terrible. How about NJ with their "big 3" a few years back? Philly? Denver? The list goes on and on. Fact is of the top 3 teams that have a chance to win the title this year (LA, Cleveland, Boston) the two of them that don't have the best player since Jordan on them had to take the route of being a lottery team to get there and didn't wallow in mediocrity and then suddenly become a contender as we're hoping will happen. Even Orlando who I could potentially take the East with one of the only players in the league who is unguardable had to take the lottery route. You admit that BC isn't that great so do you really think that he has what it takes to pull off a mirracle move that so many other perennial borderline playoff teams have been unable to make? I sure as hell don't.

And while I won't say that Bosh has done "nothing" for this team I will say that he hasn't meant 1/10 of what VC did when he made us the most exciting ticket in the NBA. And I continue to defy you to tell me the guy that is clamoring to come to TO to play with Bosh, cause I sure as hell don't see him.
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Old 03-16-2009, 01:04 PM   #37
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Default Re: What we lose if we lose Chris Bosh...

^^ A. Golden State didn't have a player of Bosh's calibur. You could argue that Baron Davis was that player, but at that stage I think GS was more of that type of team you described with multiple borderline All-star players and not one go-to guy that they deferred to. The type of team that more often than not is a pretender and usually doesn't last very long come playoff time.

Boston was only a lottery team once during the Paul Pierce era.... The rest of their "lottery" picks were because the GM made some smart trades to get those picks. He could've very well let Paul Pierce walk a couple years ago or traded him before his contract ran out. Instead, he decided to put a strong veteran laden team around him and make a strong championship push. And to do that, he had to trade away his most promising young prospect (Al Jefferson) in favor of team success... That's just how it works.

As far as BC is concerned, I can only go by what I read, but I heard we were actually offered Pau Gasol for Bargnani + fillers back in 2007.. And there's nothing that would make me doubt that offer considering what he actually got traded for. And in additioin to that, why didn't we go after low budget guys like Matt Barnes, Gerald Green, Flip Murray.. I mean, you can give 6mill/yr to a guy like JK and not even give one of these guys consideration for considerably less than that?

And how could anyone in their right mind think that any combination of 2, Moon/Parker/Kapono/Graham in your starting lineup could legitimately compete for a top 4 spot in the EC. Bosh isn't the only person the "honeymoon phase" is over for. It's time for you to take a good, hard look at your beloved BC and to see the complete mess/predicament he's put us in. I was never a fan of the whole run/gun Euro movement but after seeing basically one year of success i said, "well, I don't think we'd ever win a championship with that style but maybe BC sees something I don't." Then the following year we get stomped (again) in the playoffs, and I said "Come the **** on, I knew this was a pretender team and not a contender. I personally would've preferred that BC take 1 or 2 years to build this team up good and properly, then to just run to Europe, grab all the best available FA's there, grossly overpay the (at that time) best shooter in the league, and think that was gonna equal long term success. I'm honestly tired of all the BC defense. If the best moves that anyone can remember him making are the Pops and Moon signings, then we have some serious problems.

Last edited by bokes15 : 03-16-2009 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 03-16-2009, 02:38 PM   #38
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Default Re: What we lose if we lose Chris Bosh...

So you rule out GS and conveniently ignore other teams that I mentioned (Philly, Washington, NJ in "big 3" era, Denver etc.) that do or did have "go-to" guys and yet were/are nothing more than pretenders and perennial first-round bounces which is the path that we're on, assuming we even make the playoffs.

As to you're second point, yes BC has been a disaster in the last couple years. I for one never said anything otherwise. I have a question for you though: Given that BC has been a disaster, what makes you think that he's suddenly going to pull of a Boston-esque or LA-esque trade and suddenly land us 1 or 2 allstars for nothing? I for one cannot possibly imagine that happening. Given that fact its time to rebuild this team from the ground up, and Bosh now having been the go-to guy for two 27'ish win seasons cannot be considered untouchable no matter how much people want to heap unwarranted praises on him.

As b4ball said Bosh being traded would not be the end of the Raptors. What might be is if everyone continues to delude themselves into thinking he's a leader, franchise player etc., BC tries to build around him and fails (again) and he bounces in 2010 and we get nothing. I hope having our beloved Bosh and his Youtube videos for one more year will be worth the future of this franchise.
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Old 03-16-2009, 02:52 PM   #39
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Default Re: What we lose if we lose Chris Bosh...

No, I didn't go down 1 by 1 and dissect each name you casually metioned in passing. If I just say "Philly? Washington? NJ?" I'm not going to expect you to write a paragraph regarding each team when all i've done is drop a name with little to no explanation.

BUT, since you want to insist on it. NJ's "big 3" was pretty good, but as we've seen in recent years, what a true "big 3" needs is a solid 4 or 5 to make them legitimate. Miami had Shaq, Boston had KG, LA has Pau Gasol and had Shaq, SA had/has Duncan, etc etc... NJ had Nenad Krstic and Jason Collins. Philly had who, Dikembe Mutombo? Todd Muculluh? Samuel Dalembert? As for Denver, I don't recall them having a big 3 in recent memory. They had AI and Melo, but who was that third guy? Nene? Really?

And here's an even better question to counter your question. You think he would do a better job of completely building the franchise from the ground up than he would do of making 2-3 major trades and FA signings? Also, I don't think that anyone consider Bargs "nothing" anymore. I don't think trading him next season would necessarily be the right move, but possibly a sign and trade in the summer of 2010 if he has a solid season to backup the strides he's made this season. No, I don't feel that Bosh should be untouchable, but I do feel that the deal for him should be pretty significant and not just a trade to get rid of him.
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Old 03-16-2009, 03:40 PM   #40
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Default Re: What we lose if we lose Chris Bosh...

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Originally Posted by bokes15
No, I didn't go down 1 by 1 and dissect each name you casually metioned in passing. If I just say "Philly? Washington? NJ?" I'm not going to expect you to write a paragraph regarding each team when all i've done is drop a name with little to no explanation.

BUT, since you want to insist on it. NJ's "big 3" was pretty good, but as we've seen in recent years, what a true "big 3" needs is a solid 4 or 5 to make them legitimate. Miami had Shaq, Boston had KG, LA has Pau Gasol and had Shaq, SA had/has Duncan, etc etc... NJ had Nenad Krstic and Jason Collins. Philly had who, Dikembe Mutombo? Todd Muculluh? Samuel Dalembert? As for Denver, I don't recall them having a big 3 in recent memory. They had AI and Melo, but who was that third guy? Nene? Really?

And here's an even better question to counter your question. You think he would do a better job of completely building the franchise from the ground up than he would do of making 2-3 major trades and FA signings? Also, I don't think that anyone consider Bargs "nothing" anymore. I don't think trading him next season would necessarily be the right move, but possibly a sign and trade in the summer of 2010 if he has a solid season to backup the strides he's made this season. No, I don't feel that Bosh should be untouchable, but I do feel that the deal for him should be pretty significant and not just a trade to get rid of him.

I'm not expected a paragraph-long disection for each team I mentioned, just an explanation for how if its so much "easier" to convert a team like our position into a contender than to be a lottery team for a while, why teams like that were unable to and what makes us so different from them. And also why 3 of the top 4 teams in the league (Boston, Cleveland, Orlando) had to go the lottery route recently to get there. So what, we have a legit big and the borderline teams were missing one? Well they had legit guards and we're missing one. We're essentially in the same position they were in and history has shown that it wasn't so "easy" to get out of it.

And yes I think that we'd have a better chance retooling completely since the draft is essentially a crap shoot every year and eventually luck will have to come our way. At this point I'd rather trust random chance to help us than BC to pull off a once-in-a-generation blockbuster move where Kapono and Banks land us an allstar. And a sign and trade next year with Bargs will be completely useless if Bosh walks for nothing out of frustration because how dare Toronto expect their franchise player earning max dollars to carry their team.
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Old 03-20-2009, 08:41 AM   #41
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Default Re: What we lose if we lose Chris Bosh...

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Dude WTF.. seriously. You give so much props to Bosh when he has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for the Raptors organization and brought them absolutely nowhere. The times are tough right now and he spends all his time talking about how it's another loss and there's always next game and all this garbage. We need more guys like Marion who actually get pissed off when we lose. Bosh is not a mentally strong individual and has shown that he has given up on the team many times throughout this season. As evidenced by his video blogs where he talks about Shaq and Stephen A. Smith and how he doesn't want to talk about whats going on on the court. Those things are NOT important and maybe instead of talking about irrelevant of the court fueds he can address to the fans about the team and the dreadful product they've displayed on the court this season. This man will NOT lead the Raptors anywhere.. he's anti-clutch, not mentally strong and a TERRIBLE leader. I don't understand why people don't see this. We won't get a good return on Bosh because of those characteristics. Yes, he is a good player, but he is lacking the talent and passion to lead a team anywhere significant.

The coaching situation needs to be fixed ASAP and if we can get some quality young talent for Bosh I'm all for it. I would be ecstatic to have Bargnani over Bosh because he at least displays some passion and will stay in Toronto for a longer period of time than Bosh. Just having Bosh say that he "isn't sure" what's going to happen in 2010, means that he's not fully committed to the franchise and is weighing his options to leave. So you know what? **** that lanky bastard and trade him. Let's get some talented young players who actually want to play here and build from the ground up. Getting hard-working players like Pops and Marion are the first steps in building a tough, playoff bound team. Bosh and his softness is not a desired characteristic in the direction of this team.. and BC knows it.
agree 100%
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Old 03-20-2009, 03:52 PM   #42
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Default Re: What we lose if we lose Chris Bosh...

Why is everyone hating on Chris Bosh? He was the one that led this team to Atlantic Division win. He is a 3 time allstar does that make a difference. What has Barganni done for this team to this point... Does that make you really confident if we traded Chris Bosh. Barganni lives and dies on the perimeter if his shot doesn't fall hes done.

You guys call Chris Bosh lankyy?? LOOK at Andrea hes lanky as ****. Its proven in this league that weak Europeans post men don't lead their teams to championships ... Dirk(and Andrea is different). To me Andrea will be no different just another white guy that lacks the toughness in the NBA and gets ordered around. I say trade Barganni and Keep Bosh.

As for him leaving he hsan't said anything about leaving. He just wants to win hes a winner.
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Old 03-20-2009, 05:21 PM   #43
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Default Re: What we lose if we lose Chris Bosh...

Honestly, Bosh is a great player. But the problem I am having is having Bosh as our number 1. I find having a PF on THIS current team is a problem. I wouldn't mind a SF because that person would be able to drive. Oh yes, a PF is supposed to be in the post banging around and getting us that vital basket. But what is Bosh doing? Taking those fade away's and from the free throw line? Common, Bosh needs to learn how to play more physical if he wants to be the best player he can be. I think he can be better. But I think he needs some vet leadership to show him this.Then, he can grow as a player.

BTW, trading Bosh won't perfectly solve our problems. You guys are relying on Bargnani way to much.
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Old 03-20-2009, 05:37 PM   #44
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Default Re: What we lose if we lose Chris Bosh...

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Honestly, Bosh is a great player. But the problem I am having is having Bosh as our number 1. I find having a PF on THIS current team is a problem. I wouldn't mind a SF because that person would be able to drive. Oh yes, a PF is supposed to be in the post banging around and getting us that vital basket. But what is Bosh doing? Taking those fade away's and from the free throw line? Common, Bosh needs to learn how to play more physical if he wants to be the best player he can be. I think he can be better. But I think he needs some vet leadership to show him this.Then, he can grow as a player.

BTW, trading Bosh won't perfectly solve our problems. You guys are relying on Bargnani way to much.

Yes hes not scoring as much this year but Chris Bosh still WAY more Athletic than Barganni. I'd say the only thing that Barganni has over Bosh is shooting Bosh is clearly the better player out of the 2... Wow shooting that will help a lot on a team with Jason Kapono, Anthony Parker, and Jose Calderon...
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